Tourney Run it twice (2 Viewers)

[Wils]

This is primarily (exclusively?) a cash game thing but does anyone do this, or has anyone ever done this, for tourneys?

If so, why? What issue were you having that it helped solve?

I'm thinking it might be an interesting (not necessarily *good*, just interesting) "novelty" idea in a freeze out to give everyone who registers early a "run it twice" chip, so you get the benefit of another chance (possibly) without it costing more cash (a consideration for some of our players who faint at the thought of rebuys lol).

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on this. Bonus points if those thoughts go over and above "hate it" or "love it"

 

[doublebooyah85]

It’s a fun idea. I wouldn’t like it bc it would make the tourney longer. But it’s a good way to introduce a cash game mechanism with a different player pool.

Similarly we have done bomb pots at the end of every other level during tourneys before for some fun.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

We cannot do this for tournaments. Heavy collusion considerations. People keeping their friends in by running it twice to limit the chance of them losing; friends swapping action and running it twice against each other; big stacks running it twice vs short stacks to extend bubble play and continue pressure.

 

[DaneWoj]

We ran a run twice tournament a few years ago. We played our normal bi period for two hours and then at the end of the period each player got a run it twice voucher. The players could only use it one time when they deemed it was necessary. A few people busted out while still holding their run twice voucher. What we discovered is the tournament ran a bit long because players just didn’t bust.

I believe we entered the final table with an interesting dynamic where two players still were holding their runner twice voucher. The dynamic of the game was interesting because some people would play differently at the final table, knowing someone has or does not have a run twice voucher.

The consensus was to use your run twice whenever you were all in and at risk. We did require hands to be face up, and then you got to choose whether you got to use it.

 

[JustinInMN]

This is primarily (exclusively?) a cash game thing but does anyone do this, or has anyone ever done this, for tourneys?

If so, why? What issue were you having that it helped solve?

I'm thinking it might be an interesting (not necessarily *good*, just interesting) "novelty" idea in a freeze out to give everyone who registers early a "run it twice" chip, so you get the benefit of another chance (possibly) without it costing more cash (a consideration for some of our players who faint at the thought of rebuys lol).

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on this. Bonus points if those thoughts go over and above "hate it" or "love it"

Remember, THE GOAL OF A TOURNAMENT IS TO ELIMINATE ALL PARTICIPANTS BUT ONE. Running it multiple times reduces the chances of elimination so players in this position are effectively colluding against all other participants, and running afoul of the tournament objective.

This does not apply to cash games because players are not eliminated unless they choose to walk away. So running it multiple times is fine in these games, and is prevalent as an easier form of risk management than earlier forms of insurance.

But back on tournaments, in theory if you did such an event, it could appear fair so long as everyone has the chance to do this. But I would see these pitfalls.

1) Will make eliminations far more rare, prolonging the event.
2) Players may get selective about which players to run multiples and which to run once, this will cause hurt feelings and the appearance of alliances. (Or there may outright just be open alliances.)

I wouldn't suggest it.

 

[chippitydoodah]

Not sure I'd want my all in made straight on the turn called by 4 to a flush and have them use their "run it twice" chip only to either chop or worse, they get their suit on both rivers. Grrrr.

 

[detroitdad]

I don't mind mixing it up. My only suggestion is to make the rules clear on when you can play the "run it twice" button.

I did a tourney a few times where I gave everyone a "Make it a Double" chip. We were playing a NLHE tourney. If you played this chip before the deal. The next hand was double board PLO.

It was a fun change of pace.

 

[detroitdad]

We cannot do this for tournaments. Heavy collusion considerations. People keeping their friends in by running it twice to limit the chance of them losing; friends swapping action and running it twice against each other; big stacks running it twice vs short stacks to extend bubble play and continue pressure.

Sounds like a new group of friends is in order if you are worried about collusion.

 

[Eriks]

I hate it
If (and that’s a big if) I would consider implementing it, I would restrict it to perhaps the first 2 levels or something. Then the purpose would simply be to give an extra chance in case of an early cooler situation.

But yeah, this:

THE GOAL OF A TOURNAMENT IS TO ELIMINATE ALL PARTICIPANTS BUT ONE

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Sounds like a new group of friends is in order if you are worried about collusion.

I understand the sentiment but disagree.

1. most tournaments I run I invite a mixture of family, good friends, poker buddies, and friends of friends. Some are closer than others and I can see a family member playing a run it twice because they enjoy playing with their cousin or sister. Usual tournament its no issue, but this chip injects that extra decision I'd rather not have. Same reason we have cards face up when the money goes in in tournaments: makes the all-ins more fun, gives everyone a sweat, and makes sure nothing too funny is going on.

2. Even if its just my core group of friends they'd use this to needle eachother lol. They're not serious poker players and wouldn't see anything wrong with deciding to run it twice against C but never against F because he bet against the Jets the week before. Not formal collusion, but some goofiness.

I'll make it clear that I'm 10% worried about the type of maliciuous collusion that I would already be concerned about, and 90% just thinking about the theory of tournaments and how they should be running. We want eliminations!

 

[Machine]

I would vote no; better to offer endless rebuys if you don't care about the duration.

 

[bmacpoker]

I can see it as a fun change of pace if everyone just has a run it twice chip, but it really doesn't work for me in a tournament format. You need to build stacks and eliminate players, chopping pots is the antithesis of that. And I want to apply pressure to where someone isn't willing to flip, win dead money. But now you incentivize calling and I gain very little with the blinds about to go up.

And imagine you are sort of playing ICM, either on the bubble or hoping for a money jump, someone is about to be at risk and you can win more money with a knockout... and someone throws in a run it twice chip. It would be annoying.

I realize in a smaller game no one is playing super serious, so my scenarios probably aren't as annoying as portrayed, but I feel like just play a cash game then.

 

[Wils]

Lots of food for thought so far. I think IF I introduced this (and it's far from certain, there's a lot to think about) it would have to be a "first round cooler" situation. You're way behind, you now have a slightly better chance of hitting your 2 outer. Maybe only allow it if you're behind (to avoid running it twice just to keep someone else in, for example).

On the subject of "the point of a tourney is to eliminate people" - who's heard of rebuys?

 

[merkong]

Pahhs

 

[Deucekies]

Seems to me the only way this would be even remotely fair is if every all-in resulted in running it twice automatically. No picking and choosing.

But as others have said, it defeats the purpose of a tournament, which is to eliminate players. I wouldn't play in a tournament with any version of this.

 

[TheRealStephen12]

If you're going to do something like this, you have to always run it twice. Alternatively, you could play double-board if you want 2 run outs.

 

[JustinInMN]

Lots of food for thought so far. I think IF I introduced this (and it's far from certain, there's a lot to think about) it would have to be a "first round cooler" situation. You're way behind, you now have a slightly better chance of hitting your 2 outer. Maybe only allow it if you're behind (to avoid running it twice just to keep someone else in, for example).

On the subject of "the point of a tourney is to eliminate people" - who's heard of rebuys?

The rebuy period always ends sometime.

 

[upNdown]

I wouldnt do it. But if each player has only one chip, only one opportunity to run it twice, I’m not sure it would have a significant impact on the tournament.

 

[MeridianFC]

I need to think about this.

There I thought about it. No.

 

[Gunnar]

I have actually been thinking about something similar but decided that it was hard to implement fairly so no one would be salted. I have though of alternative ways to use misc chips in tournaments.

- Call for a bomb pot or another game next hand is my favorite
- Show the cards after the hand (Show em) is a classic
- Addon chip - You can add small amount to you stack next hand, so basically a reserve chip that is then automatically used when rebuy ends.
- Ocean ( card after the river) Im still thinking about this one but it does not equal a split even though it changes the odds.

 

[LotsOfChips]

I think it would slow the game down to a crawl. With the escalating blinds, the last thing I would want would be to watch the last seconds of the blind clock bleed away while a couple of players talk interminably about whether to run it twice, then wait for the dealer to run both sets of cards, then wait even longer for everyone to decide if anyone won the pot, or if the whole hand was just a massive waste of time.

Meanwhile my big blind just increased by a substantial amount.

Not to mention the point raised by several others, that the elimination rate would be substantially decreased, messing up any attempts to plan the event duration.

TLDR - I'm not a fan of the idea.