Rewarding the TOC Champion - help me vet an idea I mulling... (1 Viewer)

[HiveKueen]

Quick background:

I run a league, we play for points.
Each league season is 8 games, we get 4 seasons in each year
Top 8 point getters play in the Season Championship
Winning a Season Championship qualifies you for a Tournament of Champions.
TOC is a 6 MAX and the qualifying rules are designed to result in 1 TOC per year.

I want to handsomely reward the TOC Champion. The TOC is a trophy and token event (i.e. a revolving trophy and a keeper token to the winner).

But I'm also wanting to give something meaningful and truly unique, and coveted, to the TOC Champ, who will reign for ~1 year.

Idea:
Give the TOC champ a "one time" token that, when used, "buys" the Champ a chip-up to the largest stack in a future game during her/his reign (use it or lose it).

Good, bad?? Issues??

I'm already considering placing some limits on when the toke can be used.
For example:
Game 8 tends to be pretty consequential for getting into the championship so maybe not allow it in game 8.
Only allow use of it up to a certain blind level.
Can't be used "against" the same person two times in a row (so if Champ 1 uses it to chip up to Player A's stack) Champ 2 cannot use it to chip up to Player A's stack).
??other restrictions to ensure this doesn't backfire


Help me vet this idea!! And/Or make other suggestions for how to reward the TOC Champ in a meaningful/motivational way!!

Cheers,
HiveKueen

PS Need to make up my mind by 12/27 in time for our next TOC (I won the first one so not worried about jipping the first/current champ!)

 

[Moxie Mike]

So if I understand your idea, you want to award your TOC winner with a token that allows them to chip up to the chip leader's stack? It's a one-time deal?

Personally, I'm not a fan of the idea of one season affecting the next. Subsequent seasons will probably have new participants that will be subject to an disadvantage they didn't have the opportunity to earn themselves.

If you implement the idea as articulated, you should understand that that's a pretty substantial advantage. Depending on the structure, a player could be on life support and then 'chip up', matching the chip leader's stack that he/she earned. If I were a chip leader in that spot, I don't think that would sit well with me.

My feeling is that each season of league should stand alone and prizes shouldn't carry over.

TOC is a 6 MAX and the qualifying rules are designed to result in 1 TOC per year.

So if there are 4 seasons... 4 winners that automatically advance to the TOC? If it's 6-max, where do the other 2 participants comes from? What if a player wins multiple seasons?

This seems somewhat complicated. In my experience, the simpler you can make the format the better for everyone - including the organizer.

 

[HiveKueen]

So if I understand your idea, you want to award your TOC winner with a token that allows them to chip up to the chip leader's stack? It's a one-time deal?

Yes to both. the token would be usable one time in the upcoming 36 games (4 seasons), no one else would have the same token at the same time.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the idea of one season affecting the next. Subsequent seasons will probably have new participants that will be subject to an disadvantage they didn't have the opportunity to earn themselves.

I hadn't thought of this and will add it to what I consider. Thanks.

If you implement the idea as articulated, you should understand that that's a pretty substantial advantage. Depending on the structure, a player could be on life support and then 'chip up', matching the chip leader's stack that he/she earned. If I were a chip leader in that spot, I don't think that would sit well with me.

The single game (out of 36) it gets used in is one consideration for sure. The bigger picture is, does it have value that outweighs the pretty small chance the token will get used "against" you at some point? I would be willing to trade the tiny chance it is used to my disadvantage (i.e. I have the stack that gets matched) for the (1) "prestige" of having earned the token and having it in front of me at the table and (2) for the value it could have in getting me into a future championship that I might not otherwise get into! I'm considering polling the league members to see if they feel the same as me or more along the lines of you (with whom my wife agrees).

So if there are 4 seasons... 4 winners that automatically advance to the TOC? If it's 6-max, where do the other 2 participants comes from? What if a player wins multiple seasons?

You'll have to trust me that the qualifying criteria should result in a TOC approximately once per year. Due to repeat champions, it took us 2+ years to get to the first TOC. The explanation of all this aspect of our TOC is for a different thread.

This seems somewhat complicated. In my experience, the simpler you can make the format the better for everyone - including the organizer.

I am retired and this league is my main hobby. There are few things I enjoy more than working on it! I know, i need a life! The players really like the TOC feature of the league and the exclusivity of it. It is highly motivating to them. I hope I'm not projecting here!!

Thanks again for your input!
HiveKueen

 

[Moxie Mike]

The bigger picture is, does it have value that outweighs the pretty small chance the token will get used "against" you at some point? I would be willing to trade the tiny chance it is used to my disadvantage...

I think you're underestimating what kind of advantage this would be.

If deployed, this isn't just putting one person at a disadvantage - it's affecting the entire field. Imagine a scenario where a (presumably) skilled player can just automatically level up to the big stack. A competent player with a big stack is a lethal combination.

But it isn't just about the top-up in the moment... it affects the entire dynamic because he can proceed with the knowledge that he can take numerous risks with impunity... and if the deck doesn't bail him out he can use his token and not only get out of danger, he get's to be the co-chip leader.

Depending on when it's deployed, it's almost a guarantee of a strong finish. Imagine being later in the night when the avg stack is less than 20 BBs... and all of a sudden you can chip up to a 60BB stack.

An alternative idea might be to allow the TOC winner to top up to a starting stack in a future event. This would be of diminishing value in later stages of the tournament and doesn't affect the field as much. It's kind of like a free re-entry.

Due to repeat champions, it took us 2+ years to get to the first TOC.

OK so now that you have enough season champs to fill a table of 6, you can host a TOC every year. I think I get it... but capping it at 6-max seems awkward if you have between 7 and 9 participants. You'd have two short handed tables to start for a long time.

You didn't ask for feedback on that, so I'll refrain from further comment.

 

[MrCatPants]

The issue would be that it personally punishes whoever is leading that tourney vs. the whole field equally. I would suggest something lesser like a free rebuy out of the prior year prize pool, entry to their first event free, something like that.

Let's say you've rolled up half the chips at the table in a league event and then someone were to pull this voucher out? Really would punish you to a much greater degree than all the short stacks.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I don't like it. I like the idea of some sort of Touirnament of Champions, that's really cool, but agreed with Moxie about seasons standing alone.

I don't want to join a fresh league in a new place and lose a tournament when the favorite gets to match my stack down the stretch. I am just a buddy who wants to play poker at your league, I try a new game, catch a heater and I'm chip leader! Suddenly someone who did well last year matches my stack and wins.

This is a success-begets-success addition, I want trophies and crowns to be aesthetic only.

The issue would be that it personally punishes whoever is leading that tourney vs. the whole field equally. I would suggest something lesser like a free rebuy out of the prior year prize pool, entry to their first event free, something like that.

Hmmmm does it? I would say it punishes the leader yes but may punish the baby stack more. Stack size is very relative, I think it may be worse for a 5 BB stack for another baby stack to balloon up to 65 BB. The former (now co-) chip leader doesn't love sharing the throne but both are comfortable while the dangerzone just lost one without getting closer to the bubble or laddering.

On the flipside the leader can exert less pressure and has to worry about a bigger threat, for sure. I'm gonna spend too much time thinking about this today.

 

[HiveKueen]

Your input is really helping me think this through! Thinking out loud...

I think you're underestimating what kind of advantage this would be.

This is quite possible. It is definitely hugely advantageous for the game it gets used in. That I acknowledge.

As the league director, and someone who likes to play in championships, i tend to think of each game as a means to a coveted end - specifically, the championships! I actually actively promote this mind set amongst the players with how I've set up and run the league.

This focus does often result in making decisions that favor increasing the prestige of the championships over winning singleton games.

For example some people play in my game for the money at stake in each game and couldn't care less about the championships. I discourage this with my paltry $30 buy ins! I suspect my membership would be vastly different if the buy-in was $150!

So, when faced with a choice that favors championships over weeklies , I typically choose to boost the importance of the championships. That said, I don't want people to get punished in the weeklies so it is a balancing act for sure.

If deployed, this isn't just putting one person at a disadvantage - it's affecting the entire field. Imagine a scenario where a (presumably) skilled player can just automatically level up to the big stack. A competent player with a big stack is a lethal combination.

I'm happy to say I know this from experience!

Depending on when it's deployed, it's almost a guarantee of a strong finish.

By design. I envision people using the one time strategically to boost themselves into the championships.

An alternative idea might be to allow the TOC winner to top up to a starting stack in a future event. This would be of diminishing value in later stages of the tournament and doesn't affect the field as much. It's kind of like a free re-entry.

All such suggestions are welcome! The winnowing criteria will be, is the "token" adequately rewarding (you beat 6 champions) and motivational (that is, incentivizes players to get into the championships by playing more often, playing their best at all times, improving their games, have bragging rights, etc.).

Ain't league play grand!!

Thanks again for your inputs!
HiveKueen

 

[Josh Kifer]

.... Why are you helping the guy who won? That sounds like a great way to have everyone who lost to stop playing.

 

[HiveKueen]

More good food for thought. This and Moxie's replies are really sharpening my understanding of why I run this league!! What are my priorities.

This is a success-begets-success addition, I want trophies and crowns to be aesthetic only.

This input especially. This thought helps me realize that this is the antithesis of why I run the league! Championship victories are what its all about! And it helps me understand that I'm seeking players who feel the same way as I do.

When I first started playing in a league in 2009 i had no clued how to play. But I really really wanted to win a season championship bracelet (and get my picture on the main page of the website!). It took 8 years to do so and vast amounts of time improving my game. This is where I've come from and seek players interested in making this journey. Our current season champion has played in the league since inception (4/2023) and was over the moon when he won the championship game and is really, really looking forward to the TOC - especially since his wife will be playing in it!

Hmmmm does it? I would say it punishes the leader yes but may punish the baby stack more.

Acknowledged...the baby stack in the specific game where the token gets used.

I'm gonna spend too much time thinking about this today.

LOL - thanks for this chuckle!

 

[HiveKueen]

.... Why are you helping the guy who won? That sounds like a great way to have everyone who lost to stop playing.

Really, if one token gets use in the span of 36 games? Color me skeptical here.

Any suggestions for how to both meaningfully reward the champ and incentivize the members that you would be good with?

 

[HiveKueen]

The issue would be that it personally punishes whoever is leading that tourney vs. the whole field equally. I would suggest something lesser like a free rebuy out of the prior year prize pool, entry to their first event free, something like that.

Let's say you've rolled up half the chips at the table in a league event and then someone were to pull this voucher out? Really would punish you to a much greater degree than all the short stacks.

Thanks. I agree it is a substantive reward to have up your sleeve. Do you see any offsetting advantages? Any other suggestions?

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Really, if one token gets use in the span of 36 games? Color me skeptical here.

You're right but poker players obsess over edges. If someone wins the TOC they should be an excellent player; if I'm some mook that shows up and loses money to that excellent player every week I would be very annoyed if they rug pull me when I'm trying to compete for once.

You're a host, so there's the macro and micro considerations. Macro, not a big deal and won't dramatically shift the lineups. But micro, that moment may piss people off. It may be someone who wasn't even around when that token was given out. So they get lucky and almost stack this confident player, then the next moment we're neck and neck again. If they lose, that moment will stick out to them as unfair and an odd carry-over.

Certainly telling you whats best for your league but those are my considerations.

 

[Josh Kifer]

Really, if one token gets use in the span of 36 games? Color me skeptical here.

Any suggestions for how to both meaningfully reward the champ and incentivize the members that you would be good with?

Lol. Okay. Be skeptical.

But I wouldn't play if the league paid them off, gave them a trophy, then gave them an advantage for the next year. Super bowl winners don't get the 1st pick in the draft, they get the last pick. But they get money and bling. Just make sure the money and bling are worth it.

Just do a rad trophy. We did a giant claymore sword that you got your name engraved on. Do something that is passed around and wanted. Wrestling belts are popular too. But get your own personal "Stanley Cup" that each player diehard wants there name tossed on.

 

[MrCatPants]

Thanks. I agree it is a substantive reward to have up your sleeve. Do you see any offsetting advantages? Any other suggestions?

I wouldnt do anything that affects the game. I do things like a championship ring and have a plaque that their name gets added to. We will captain planet style touch rings sometimes and make a big deal as to who the former champions are.

 

[Josh Kifer]

I wouldnt do anything that affects the game. I do things like a championship ring and have a plaque that their name gets added to. We will captain planet style touch rings sometimes and make a big deal as to who the former champions are.

I would literally assault someone for the trophy bust of @CraigT78

 

[HiveKueen]

But micro, that moment may piss people off.

Yeah, I'm thinking I would need to do an anonymous poll on this to see if people are as macro-oriented as I hope they are!!!!

 

[HiveKueen]

Super bowl winners don't get the 1st pick in the draft, they get the last pick.

Hmmm, maybe I should reward the worst player for the last year?

I just had some peanut butter and my tongue is stuck in my cheek - gotta go!

 

[Josh Kifer]

Hmmm, maybe I should reward the worst player for the last year?

I just had some peanut butter and my tongue is stuck in my cheek - gotta go!

Bottom 6 players in the league get a 6.4% chipstack advantage but get no chairs and cant sit until they win one game.

 

[BPTDirector]

I could see betting all but one chip being the potential abuse factor if you own the match top stack chip. Bad move for the game. No way to make up for that advantage.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Hmmm, maybe I should reward the worst player for the last year?

I'm glad you're listening to the excellent advice being dispensed in this thread.

Honestly, there's probably more merit in rewarding participation and boosting weaker performers than creating an environment where the rich get richer.

For example, the Moxie Poker League is comprised of 6 standalone events with a championship game at the end.

Players earn points throughout the season based on how they finish, but there are all sorts of ways players can earn bonus chips in the championship game. Examples are winning an event, a top 3 finish, number of bounties collected, number of rebuys, players outranked in the standings, and if they volunteer to serve as dedicated dealer are all ways players earn bonus chips.

So even players who have rough a season but consistently participate can enter the finale with a decent amount of bonus chips... and strong performers are of course rewarded too. Here are the numbers from my most recent season that concluded last week.

 

[detroitdad]

So if I understand your idea, you want to award your TOC winner with a token that allows them to chip up to the chip leader's stack? It's a one-time deal?

Personally, I'm not a fan of the idea of one season affecting the next. Subsequent seasons will probably have new participants that will be subject to an disadvantage they didn't have the opportunity to earn themselves.

If you implement the idea as articulated, you should understand that that's a pretty substantial advantage. Depending on the structure, a player could be on life support and then 'chip up', matching the chip leader's stack that he/she earned. If I were a chip leader in that spot, I don't think that would sit well with me.

My feeling is that each season of league should stand alone and prizes shouldn't carry over.



So if there are 4 seasons... 4 winners that automatically advance to the TOC? If it's 6-max, where do the other 2 participants comes from? What if a player wins multiple seasons?

This seems somewhat complicated. In my experience, the simpler you can make the format the better for everyone - including the organizer.

This

 

[HiveKueen]

I'm glad you're listening to the excellent advice being dispensed in this thread.

Honestly, there's probably more merit in rewarding participation and boosting weaker performers than creating an environment where the rich get richer.

For example, the Moxie Poker League is comprised of 6 standalone events with a championship game at the end.

Players earn points throughout the season based on how they finish, but there are all sorts of ways players can earn bonus chips in the championship game. Examples are winning an event, a top 3 finish, number of bounties collected, number of rebuys, players outranked in the standings, and if they volunteer to serve as dedicated dealer are all ways players earn bonus chips.

So even players who have rough a season but consistently participate can enter the finale with a decent amount of bonus chips... and strong performers are of course rewarded too. Here are the numbers from my most recent season that concluded last week.

View attachment 1604899

I will enjoy looking this over in detail! Thanks.

 

[Sprouty]

I would literally assault someone for the trophy bust of @CraigT78

 

[Josh Kifer]

View attachment 1604962

 

[RadicusScout]

Any suggestions for how to both meaningfully reward the champ and incentivize the members that you would be good with?

I'm curious, are you suggesting that the winner needs more incentive apart from the money, trophy, bragging rights, and the commemorative token? If so, has this been communicated to you directly by the players? I only ask because this feels like a solution where a problem does not exist.

I can understand if you want to make sure your losing players feel like they can still win at your game (or at least they're enjoying themselves) but in my humble (and admittedly, amateur) opinion, I don't believe your winner needs any more special consideration other than the ones already listed.

 

[Gunnar]

the only in-game thing I would do is to put an extra bounty on them.

Otherwise a nice hat or a winners chip helps them to brag each game

 

[MrCatPants]

They should make a bust of Potato Man

 

[Josh Kifer]

They should make a bust of Potato Man

I no have 3d printer.

 

[MrCatPants]

I no have 3d printer.

 

[HiveKueen]

I'm curious, are you suggesting that the winner needs more incentive apart from the money, trophy, bragging rights, and the commemorative token? If so, has this been communicated to you directly by the players?

Great question - why am i considering this. Thanks for asking as it gave me the opportunity to clearly formulate my reasons in my own mind.

As the league director, my overarching and driving goal is to introduce new features to the league often. Rarely do the players make suggestions to us but that doesn't stop me from innovating to keep things fresh. I use milestones like new seasons and upcoming championships to spur me to come up with new ideas.

For example, Season 13 is coming up. During this season I will introduce Casino Nights. Two of the 8 games will use a Casino tournament starting chip stack and blind structure including antes. I've pieced together a set of chips each denom having a casino name on them and an interesting mold (Tina web mold Mirage $100, Dunes $500, Tina Tangiers $1000, Pharoah's $5000, Monaco $10K). I've also acquired Casino branded decks of cards and dealer buttons. Over time I will flesh this out with (1) custom "casino themed" table toppers and (2) a roulette wheel and a blackjack felt off to the side for the breaks. I will promote Casino Night in my league communications and on the website. I'm hoping this boosts interest (new players) and participation (league members) in the league.

So, because the 2nd TOC is coming up, I'm considering what I can do to boost the thrill, prestige, and motivational value of even having a TOC.

I can understand if you want to make sure your losing players feel like they can still win at your game

This is not quite what I'm trying to do for the losing players. What I'm trying to do for the losing players is motivate them to improve their game so they can win eventually. I'm trying to do this by making winning Championships a super cool, fun, and prestigious experience.

What are other league runners doing to keep things fresh and motivate players to improve?? What in your experience has worked to achieve these goals??

Feel free to chime in to this discussion!
HK