Tourney Rebuys without encouraging "reckless play"? (1 Viewer)

[legonick]

Is there a way to structure a rebuy tournament, but steer people away from the slightly more reckless play rebuys "should" encourage?

Maybe the rebuy gets you less chips or something?

Kind of looking for a way for people to keep playing if they intend, but without making it a shove-fest.

 

[upNdown]

One thing you can do is give people the option for one rebuy or one addon. The addon is done at the end of the rebuy period and is worth 25-33% more than the rebuy, but costs the same.
So, 15K $50 tournament - people can rebuy at any point up to level 6 for $50 and get another 15k. But if they're still alive (and haven't rebought) at the end of level 5, they can pay $50 for a 20K addon.

 

[trigs]

Offer just one rebuy maybe.

Or run it like @moose does for some of his tournaments. Players start with a starting stack of T20K for example as well as one lammer worth another T20K. Players have the option to use the lammer any time they see fit up until the first break (or whatever set time). If a player busts their first T20K, they can trade in the lammer for another T20K, or they can cash it in for tournament chips right away and start with a double stack if they want. At the first break (or whatever set time) all lammers must be turned in for tournament chips. It's kind of like a rebuy but not really and offers players a safety net if they bust early without promoting too much crazy aggression.

 

[Eloe2000]

We had to implement a one rebuy rule initially as we transitioned over from cash games. Then we went to 2 rebuys and now we just do the standard round 5 or 6 (its been way too long since I have played) cutoff and it doesn’t get out of hand. No one ever buys in three times and it’s rare that some rebuys twice.

 

[Coyote]

One thing you can do is give people the option for one rebuy or one addon. The addon is done at the end of the rebuy period and is worth 25-33% more than the rebuy, but costs the same.
So, 15K $50 tournament - people can rebuy at any point up to level 6 for $50 and get another 15k. But if they're still alive (and haven't rebought) at the end of level 5, they can pay $50 for a 20K addon.

This, or probably (open to remarks):
Rebuy only if felted (so actual "re-entry") for a number of levels; then, re-buy to a full starting stack (without add-on) at the end of the re-entry period, regardless of stack size (obviously nobody is going to pay to get very few chips or no chips at all, so it's addressed to those substantially down from their starting stack )

 

[Mojo1312]

There are three options I have seen used to address this issue.

• Single re-buy
• 80% starting stacks on re-buys
• Players who did not re-buy into the tournament are eligible for a 50% add-on for 50% of the buy-in at the end of the re-buy period.

 

[Eloe2000]

I will just say that there is a downside to the partial stack rebuy option. I used to play in a monthly tournament with a half stack (full price) rebuy option. These bullets just become bomb lottery tickets. You might as well give these guys one chip because at the point they need to rebuy they would already be behind with a full stack and they are just looking for an opportunity to shove their half stacks. Quite frankly it makes the donkey play worse, not better in that game. I had to stop playing. There were 4 guys on a 3TT who would often fire off 6-8 rebuys. It was gross.

 

[Mr Winberg]

Or run it like @moose does for some of his tournaments. Players start with a starting stack of T20K for example as well as one lammer worth another T20K. Players have the option to use the lammer any time they see fit up until the first break (or whatever set time). If a player busts their first T20K, they can trade in the lammer for another T20K, or they can cash it in for tournament chips right away and start with a double stack if they want. At the first break (or whatever set time) all lammers must be turned in for tournament chips. It's kind of like a rebuy but not really and offers players a safety net if they bust early without promoting too much crazy aggression.

I like this, but depending on what you want to achieve you might want to tweak it. If you want cooler/bad-beat protection, you can stipulate that they can only cash in the lammer when felted or at the end of the first break. If players are allowed to cash it in immediately, someone could still be eliminated on the very first hand.

I have dubbed this "The Pre-buy": It's like a rebuy but it's forced and not perceived as a way to build the pot, so it's a bit more friendly than a rebuy.

 

[Mysticum]

Why is this a problem? If someone did this at my house, I think all the other players would be happy. It's free EV and more money to the prize pool, it seems like a win-win?

 

[ekricket]

We do one half stack rebuy/addon. We start with a T15000 stack, but the extra 5000 chip isn’t in play until you get felted, then it becomes your rebuy amount (half a starting stack) or if you don’t get felted it’s an addon at the first break.

you PAY UPFRONT. So it’s less work for the host, if someone gets felted they just get change for their 5000 and keep playing. At the first break it just becomes live with no effort from the host.

we instituted this to stop the lottery ticket bullshit of shoving before the rebuy period ends. The half starting stack is enough to play socially and come back from, but it’s not enough to shove your starting stack off because you got down to 30% before a rebuy ends.

actually promotes better play, we rarely have someone use it nowadays before the first break. It’s a safety net in case of a bad beat or bad play, but not enough to shove a small stack for, especially when you are going to get it at break time anyway. Better to save your 3000 till break and then get to add the 5000.

 

[CdnBeerLover]

This, or probably (open to remarks):
Rebuy only if felted (so actual "re-entry") for a number of levels; then, re-buy to a full starting stack (without add-on) at the end of the re-entry period, regardless of stack size (obviously nobody is going to pay to get very few chips or no chips at all, so it's addressed to those substantially down from their starting stack )

This is what we do. One rebuy in total for the game if felted, and the option to rebuy to a full stack if you still have your rebuy chip. Seems to work well.

 

[Mr Winberg]

Why is this a problem? If someone did this at my house, I think all the other players would be happy. It's free EV and more money to the prize pool, it seems like a win-win?

I think it depends on the crowd. Some noobs might feel intimidated by this type of play and choose not to come back. Perhaps the host wants high quality play rather than free EV. I'm not saying you're wrong, just giving examples on why one might want to avoid this.
I avoid rebuys for completely different reasons! ;-)

We do one half stack rebuy/addon. We start with a T15000 stack, but the extra 5000 chip isn’t in play until you get felted, then it becomes your rebuy amount (half a starting stack) or if you don’t get felted it’s an addon at the first break.

you PAY UPFRONT. So it’s less work for the host, if someone gets felted they just get change for their 5000 and keep playing. At the first break it just becomes live with no effort from the host.

we instituted this to stop the lottery ticket bullshit of shoving before the rebuy period ends. The half starting stack is enough to play socially and come back from, but it’s not enough to shove your starting stack off because you got down to 30% before a rebuy ends.

actually promotes better play, we rarely have someone use it nowadays before the first break. It’s a safety net in case of a bad beat or bad play, but not enough to shove a small stack for, especially when you are going to get it at break time anyway. Better to save your 3000 till break and then get to add the 5000.

Did you mean T10k starting stacks?

I guess the effects of this depends a lot on the structure and when the cut-off is.

 

[Thomacetti]

Hey fellas...rebuys are

 

[kmccormick100]

Make the buy-ins bigger. Or the structure deeper. If people want to fire multiple bullets and get their money in bad, I'll take it all day long.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Players start with a starting stack of T20K for example as well as one lammer worth another T20K.

If you want cooler/bad-beat protection, you can stipulate that they can only cash in the lammer when felted or at the end of the first break. If players are allowed to cash it in immediately, someone could still be eliminated on the very first hand.

I have dubbed this "The Pre-buy": It's like a rebuy but it's forced and not perceived as a way to build the pot, so it's a bit more friendly than a rebuy.

This is what my weekly group has been doing for a few years, and it strikes a great balance for a casual turbo tourney. It provides some early bust-out protection so that you don't set aside an evening for poker and end up going home in the first 15 minutes. However, it also addresses the concerns of some players who believed full and open rebuys would make the game "too crazy."

Also for the record, I'm pretty sure that I am the one who coined the term "pre-buy." Stop trying to steal my tiny bit of poker glory, @Mr Winberg!

 

[Schmendr1ck]

From March 2015:

This year, our premier tournament series features a 30K chip buy-in, which is divided into three 10K mini-stacks. Players can opt to start with 10K, 20K, or 30K in chips, and are issued a pre-buy chip for every 10K mini-stack they choose to initially leave out of play. Players may redeem a pre-buy chip for another 10K mini-stack anytime between hands, regardless of their current stack size. An optional 15K add-on purchase is available after six levels, at which time all unused pre-buy chips are also redeemed. It has definitely added additional strategy decisions to the game.

DAMMIT DAVE!

 

[Steppenwolf]

Plus one here for the "pre-buy" approach suggested by others above. Works great. Makes hosting and collection of funds more idiot proof and less taxing. Gives insurance against bad beats, keeps people in the game, provides nits something to hold onto (as an add on) and adds a tactical dimension, without encouraging all out anarchy. We double the initial cost of our old standard tourneys for pre-buys, and that gets us very close to the same prize pool we had seen in our unlimited rebuy games.

 

[Mysticum]

I think it depends on the crowd. Some noobs might feel intimidated by this type of play and choose not to come back. Perhaps the host wants high quality play rather than free EV. I'm not saying you're wrong, just giving examples on why one might want to avoid this.
I avoid rebuys for completely different reasons! ;-)

They play poker for money...yet they complain of free EV...

 

[grebe]

We do one half stack rebuy/addon. We start with a T15000 stack, but the extra 5000 chip isn’t in play until you get felted, then it becomes your rebuy amount (half a starting stack) or if you don’t get felted it’s an addon at the first break.

you PAY UPFRONT. So it’s less work for the host, if someone gets felted they just get change for their 5000 and keep playing. At the first break it just becomes live with no effort from the host.

we instituted this to stop the lottery ticket bullshit of shoving before the rebuy period ends. The half starting stack is enough to play socially and come back from, but it’s not enough to shove your starting stack off because you got down to 30% before a rebuy ends.

actually promotes better play, we rarely have someone use it nowadays before the first break. It’s a safety net in case of a bad beat or bad play, but not enough to shove a small stack for, especially when you are going to get it at break time anyway. Better to save your 3000 till break and then get to add the 5000.

I love this idea....seems like the perfect solution. My question is: Is it optional? If so, what percentage of people opt in?

 

[ekricket]

I love this idea....seems like the perfect solution. My question is: Is it optional? If so, what percentage of people opt in?

Yes it’s optional. 100% of the people opt in. Buyins are typically $10 or $20 for the tourney and half that for the option. At those stakes nobody is turning it down.

 

[legonick]

We do one half stack rebuy/addon. We start with a T15000 stack, but the extra 5000 chip isn’t in play until you get felted, then it becomes your rebuy amount (half a starting stack) or if you don’t get felted it’s an addon at the first break.

you PAY UPFRONT. So it’s less work for the host, if someone gets felted they just get change for their 5000 and keep playing. At the first break it just becomes live with no effort from the host.

we instituted this to stop the lottery ticket bullshit of shoving before the rebuy period ends. The half starting stack is enough to play socially and come back from, but it’s not enough to shove your starting stack off because you got down to 30% before a rebuy ends.

actually promotes better play, we rarely have someone use it nowadays before the first break. It’s a safety net in case of a bad beat or bad play, but not enough to shove a small stack for, especially when you are going to get it at break time anyway. Better to save your 3000 till break and then get to add the 5000.

Should you get more if you make it to the automatic addon level? Probably too confusing to manage but seems like that would add a stronger incentive to kill the lottery ticket shoving. If you were at like 1K, maybe people would think it makes sense to shove because you could win your shove. But if the addon phase gave you some amount more, people would likely lean towards that "free money" and not opt to gamble it off.

 

[legonick]

There are three options I have seen used to address this issue.

• Single re-buy
• 80% starting stacks on re-buys
• Players who did not re-buy into the tournament are eligible for a 50% add-on for 50% of the buy-in at the end of the re-buy period.

Have you seen people use those together?

 

[Mr Winberg]

Also for the record, I'm pretty sure that I am the one who coined the term "pre-buy." Stop trying to steal my tiny bit of poker glory, @Mr Winberg!

Great minds think alike!

And every now and then...

Players can opt to start with 10K, 20K, or 30K in chips, and are issued a pre-buy chip

... a simple mind lucks out!

 

[JustinInMN]

We don't have the reckless rebuy issue when I host, but I still make it a limit of 3 entries per player. In part for practicality with my set, but in part to make sure no one is going to fire 12 shells recklessly either.

I do think rebuys are generally accepted as good in my group, so maybe we aren't as skeptical of players that want to put multiple shells in a tournament. They see what it does for the prize pool, and they are smart enough to know the math is pretty bad to rebuy after what I make the cutoff point anyway. Also, I think "one-shot" tournaments discourage participation. Players my age have to make arrangements to come over, kids and whatnot. It would really suck if they went to the all that trouble just to bust out in the first 5 hands on a cooler.

So 3 entries per player is the balance I've struck and it solves most issues for us. Other suggestions in this thread are good too.

 

[ekricket]

Should you get more if you make it to the automatic addon level? Probably too confusing to manage but seems like that would add a stronger incentive to kill the lottery ticket shoving. If you were at like 1K, maybe people would think it makes sense to shove because you could win your shove. But if the addon phase gave you some amount more, people would likely lean towards that "free money" and not opt to gamble it off.

I would pull a Phil Hellmuth and not come until the addon period and then addon to the max and then punish the little stacks. You just introduce a new angle to manage. Players will complain that it’s not fair he doesn’t “risk” anything and he gets to start with a huge stack. I think it’s pretty shit to say “buy into my game, and if you last an hour - for more money - I’ll give you some actual chip stacks to play with”.

 

[JMC9389]

Why is this a problem? If someone did this at my house, I think all the other players would be happy. It's free EV and more money to the prize pool, it seems like a win-win?

This is how I feel.

I say let it rip until the end of the 3rd hour. Lots of action and lots more money in the prize pool. People start to knock off after the third break and there is still a fun 4-5 hour game in the end all said and done. I used to cut off rebuys after two hours, but almost no one wants to play cash afterwards anyway...

 

[legonick]

I would pull a Phil Hellmuth and not come until the addon period and then addon to the max and then punish the little stacks. You just introduce a new angle to manage. Players will complain that it’s not fair he doesn’t “risk” anything and he gets to start with a huge stack. I think it’s pretty shit to say “buy into my game, and if you last an hour - for more money - I’ll give you some actual chip stacks to play with”.

Wouldn't this be a problem even if you didn't tack on an additional incentive to use it as an addon instead of a rebuy? Or the "pre-buy"edness of it would mean late players don't get the option to buy it? In which case, the same "pre-buy"edness would be a good way to nuke the abuse if you did the same thing but with an incentive to use it as an addon instead of a rebuy.

All this goes to my concerns regarding addons & rebuys - it seems to muddy the waters and create a lot more angles than a "pure" freezeout.

 

[ekricket]

Wouldn't this be a problem even if you didn't tack on an additional incentive to use it as an addon instead of a rebuy? Or the "pre-buy"edness of it would mean late players don't get the option to buy it? In which case, the same "pre-buy"edness would be a good way to nuke the abuse if you did the same thing but with an incentive to use it as an addon instead of a rebuy.

All this goes to my concerns regarding addons & rebuys - it seems to muddy the waters and create a lot more angles than a "pure" freezeout.

For us it’s the social aspect - we are talking about home games not casino. Nothing like working hard all day on a Thursday, looking forward to the weekly game, getting off work finally, get out of the house, head over to the game, buy in, and because of set over set be out of the game and on the way home after the first round. Somehow that doesn’t sit well with casual social players. But if all you want is their money and then get them out of the house, then go for it.

 

[Taghkanic]

After years of previous hosts (and me) trying various options, our game has evolved into the following structure for the past year:

* All players can rebuy once for a full stack until the break after the 5th level (1 hour 40 minutes);

* All players including those who have rebought are eligible for a modest add on worth 1/3rd of a starting stack for the price of about 1/4th the initial buyin at the break, OR

* Instead of a rebuy, players may take their add-on early before the break *if* they bust *or* fall below 1/4 of a starting stack, at their own discretion.

Notes:

— A full starting stack is equivalent to 120BB at the start (not including an on-time bonus which brings it up to 150) but is worth only 20BB by round 6 when we come back together after the break.

— Pretty much everyone makes the break, except for our very worst reg; and most take the add-on then. It amounts to about +8BB at that stage, so the seemingly modest and inexpensive add-on does have some value especially to shorter stacks. Sometimes a player with a big stack forgoes the add-on (which I think is a strategic mistake, but it’s up to them.)

— To be clear, you cannot take the early add-on first then subsequently rebuy, but you can rebuy then take the add-on later. This is a conscious disincentive against the early add-on option.

— It’s likewise rare for someone to take the add-on early and forfeit their rebuy option, but there are a few who like this. Basically allows them to short stack, but it rarely works

This all may seem a little odd or complicated, but the group has got the hang of it, and it has proved popular. It also has almost completely eliminated early bingo play which was happening when multiple rebuys were allowed.

It helps ensure that most everyone gets to play for at least a couple of hours, often more. For most the game typically lasts 2.5-3 hours and 3.5-4 hours for those who go deep.

The purposes of all of the above are to (a) make sure people traveling anywhere from 20-50 minutes by car get some decent playing time in, even if they are running bad; (b) build a nice prize pool without compelling anyone to peel repeatedly to keep up with the better bankrolled players.

 

[legonick]

For us it’s the social aspect - we are talking about home games not casino. Nothing like working hard all day on a Thursday, looking forward to the weekly game, getting off work finally, get out of the house, head over to the game, buy in, and because of set over set be out of the game and on the way home after the first round. Somehow that doesn’t sit well with casual social players. But if all you want is their money and then get them out of the house, then go for it.

That is exactly what I'm afraid of!

I'm looking for some way to tone down the IMHO biggest downside of tournament play for casual home games, without ramping up the lottery aspect. Lots of good ideas in here.

I wonder if booze isn't a good answer? LOL. If a few people bust, I would not be surprised to see them hang out for a bit to watch the game and enjoy a cocktail with friends. Maybe they don't make the showdown, but at least they'd have some fun even with a 9th place finish.