Rake or fellowship? (1 Viewer)

[Nightowl]

Good evening. I started a poker group earlier in the year that has exploded into a small club that includes about 45 players (mostly one full table cash self dealt, with the occasional two table tournament every 45 days or so also self-dealt). I typically buy a few pizzas, drinks, and have liquor (some people bring liquor for the house) and throw the game for the fun of it (non raked, no seating fee). It's usually just customary that the big winners tip out with the understanding the losers have already lost and its nice to chip in for food/drink. The group is pretty friendly and we are more of a social circle the majority of us (some people just come to play and thats ok as well).

Lately it has been expressed by a few of the degenerate types that a side poker game with a higher buy in has opened up down the road. I had been invited but declined (i have my own game to run), but others have attended and expressed that they have enjoyed the type of accomodations that come with raked games (better selection of private chef cooked meals, hired dealers, etc). Some players (those that primarily play cash and are more serious gamblers) have advocated that there be a rake taken and the game begin to hire dealers to meet that level of play. I am just curious how everyone felt about charging a seating fee or doing a rake. Hiring dealers? Thoughts on a seating fee to pay dealers?

 

[acezag]

Should you convert your friendly home game into an illegal casino?

How do you feel about armed guards, police raids? How does your partner feel about the possibility of having your house seized? How kindly will the other illegal operations view you getting in on their action?

How can we answer those for you?

 

[chippitydoodah]

If your game is a success then maybe just keep being you. Be the alternative game in town.

 

[Nightowl]

If your game is a success then maybe just keep being you. Be the alternative game in town.

I’m thinking so man

 

[doublebooyah85]

You’re going to get an overwhelming anti rake approach from pcf, and understandy so. You have some of the most generous hosts here.

I would be cautious starting a rake for food and drinks and such but if you can get dealers that’s a huge plus. Often someone will deal for tips alone…

 

[Josh Kifer]

Never rake. Rake in my state means jail time. Just host to have a great time with friends. They will invest if it's worth it. Everyone wins.

 

[JustinInMN]

I am just curious how everyone felt about charging a seating fee or doing a rake. Hiring dealers?

In most US jurisdictions, taking a rake in a home game will run afoul of regulation and put you in legal jeopardy.

There has been the occasional thread about police raids.

Research laws for yourself, but in general this action comes with legal risk.

It's usually just customary that the big winners tip out with the understanding the losers have already lost and its nice to chip in for food/drink. The group is pretty friendly and we are more of a social circle the majority of us (some people just come to play and thats ok as well).

As long as this is happening, what you are doing is just fine.

Are most of the folks here in it for the buck or doing it for the fellowship and comradery. Thoughts on a seating fee to pay dealers?

Safe to say most hosts invest more in their games than they get out of it, and that's fine. I think it's good to encourage tipping or people bringing snacks and such. But that really is only safe if on a voluntary basis.

 

[Nightowl]

Should you convert your friendly home game into an illegal casino?

How do you feel about armed guards, police raids? How does your partner feel about the possibility of having your house seized? How kindly will the other illegal operations view you getting in on their action?

How can we answer those for you?

I think you were loud and clear;

 

[valleychips]

I'd never ever take a rake. It opens the door to a lot of negative aspects, whether they be legal issues or shady characters, or worse. I wouldn't even go to a raked home game, let alone run one.

If it helps, my non-playing dealers do it for tips. I loudly and often remind players to tip generously (my go to line is that we need the dealers a lot more than they need us). Players can bring whatever food or drink they want. Dealers give me 10% of tips (and I tip them when I'm playing) to offset my costs, and that percentage is capped at a small number of dollars anyway. That's for equipment or anything else I provide (I'm still in the hole for that stuff but eventually I'll catch up). And as a buffer if the bank is ever short (which it shouldn't be ever again). Not that I'll ever be compensated for my time but that's fine, I chose to start this game.

Hope that helps.

 

[Kam]

The cliché rings true here; “the juice ain't worth the squeeze”.

No rake for me, I don’t spot players cash, don’t run a book etc. I put out a selection of random cheap beers, some gifted liquor from other players and light snacks. Only cost involved is if I order food to be delivered, I split that cost and folk only pay the split %. I.e, $4 a slice of pizza if it’s $32 for it to be delivered to my door, $32/8 =$4.00 per slice. Done.

I’ll likely raise my stakes in the future, but keep a rotation of ‘friendly’ low stakes and some ‘mid’ stakes for home games, won’t rake either.

Agree with the above, do your research plus you’ll likely lose a lot of your current player pool and potentially attract more misreg types.

GL!

 

[thePokerClub]

Lately it has been expressed by a few of the degenerate types that a side poker game with a higher buy in has opened up down the road. I had been invited but declined (i have my own game to run), but others have attended and expressed that they have enjoyed the type of accomodations that come with raked games (better selection of private chef cooked meals, hired dealers, etc). Some players (those that primarily play cash and are more serious gamblers) have advocated that there be a rake taken and the game begin to hire dealers to meet that level of play. I am just curious how everyone felt about charging a seating fee or doing a rake. Hiring dealers? Thoughts on a seating fee to pay dealers?

Remember, everyone wants to find the nice raked game and cool feel; not to mention more money being thrown around.

But.....few want to take the risk in doing it themselves.

Its not worth the risk my friend.

 

[Labrat]

Hard no on a rake.

 

[Jers28]

No rake here. I provide dealers and the tables tip pretty generously. Dealers can usually make around $500 for an 8 hour (ish) game. Some nights considerably more, when we get a bit crazier on double and triple straddling. Bigger pots usually mean bigger tips.

We recently moved our start time from 5-7pm to 3-4pm so when we do feel like playing longer, we aren’t playing until the sun comes up. That meant I needed to provide a meal, in addition to the snacks and drinks I was already providing. I didn’t ask anyone for a thing and the funny thing is players started volunteering to bring stuff, too. Last weekend one guy brought a huge pork butt he’d smoked (was awesome!), another brought all kinds of deserts his wife makes for her business, another brought baked beans, we supplied plates, buns, chips, potato salad, etc. Tomorrow is back to just us doing all of dinner, but I guarantee the guys will throw $10-30 a piece in without me asking.

It’s been suggested by several players I could/should charge a rake, too. And my answer is simple. I make a good living at my real job. This is for fun. I’m not risking jail time for anything, let alone for a hobby. I very much like that a cop can walk right in to my game, pull up a chair and play and there’s zero risk of anyone getting into any trouble!

I don’t know what you do for a living, but if I got charged with something serious, I could lose my professional licenses and the ability to do my real job. Way too much risk for very little upside in the grand scheme to things for me.

 

[Baxit]

If you can afford it, don't ruin your cool event by running a grey business, maybe with camera, security guys etc. Just my 2 chips

 

[Mushmanchuman]

Sounds like you just need a dealer and you are all set. Maybe you can be the dealer if you can't find one local. Maybe train a buddy up and put them in the box.

No need to rake the game. You're already providing food. If the players want a dealer then make sure to let them know that the dealer costs money. Either they should be tipping enough to make it worth it or you just pay the dealer a flat rate.

 

[davesilver88]

I strongly dislike, don’t support, and nearly hate any home game that rakes. Plus, it’s illegal. Call it a “one time house gratuity” if you want, it’s still a rake and is a federal crime.

Having said that, if expenses are clearly itemized (dealer, food, drink), and there is some split among all players, I’m cool with that - as that’s not a rake.

 

[Baldeagle9]

Question, so how do people collect money for the expenses then? Like Food, a dealer, drinks, cards etc.... it all adds up especially over time.

 

[JustinInMN]

Question, so how do people collect money for the expenses then? Like Food, a dealer, drinks, cards etc.... it all adds up especially over time.

@merkong has good looking tip jars by the food .

Most players will leave me a few bucks if they win, that's enough to cover what I offer. As long as that culture holds up, it works out.

 

[DrStrange]

I rarely if ever covered the cost of a Saturday game from my players. I never covered the cost of my kid's birthday party, or family thanksgiving, or a 4th of July BBQ either.

I am hosting my friends in my home. This time, it happens to be a poker game. I don't have to offer amenities. Other games I play in don't offer anything and still have plenty of players. We choose to have food and drinks. Yes, it costs money.

I have played in games with a "door charge" The host has bought dinner, divided up the costs and we each pay - e.g. we order a couple of pizzas and split the costs. That also works and is fair enough.

For sure you can run a game as a profit seeking venture. This has pluses and minuses. Each of us will have to make our own decisions.

I will note that a significant rake tends to burn through players as the weaker one go broke faster, more often. You might have four tables to start, but you will need to steadily recruit new customers. -=- DrStrange

 

[Baldeagle9]

@merkong has good looking tip jars by the food .

Most players will leave me a few bucks if they win, that's enough to cover what I offer. As long as that culture holds up, it works out.

Tip jar by food, makes sense and it's optional but most players would understand to help out a little, perfect idea!!! I absolutely agree with DrStrange also. I do not want to make a profit, as I wouldn't with any other event or party I host at my house either; but I just want to get a little back for constantly hosting. I will still always be paying more out of pocket and am absolutely fine with that just don't want to pay for every single thing every single time I host. Thank you all for your tips and ideas!

 

[ThrowBack]

In another life I would have run an underground room with rake, tables, and loans

In this life I provide hot dogs and a game of clowns

 

[thePokerClub]

I just want to get a little back for constantly hosting. I will still always be paying more out of pocket and am absolutely fine with that just don't want to pay for every single thing every single time I host.

I just had a game on Friday and realized this one. I hadn't thought to mention it before.

If you know of anyone that provides food as a side hustle or local business you can always offer to let them provide food for your game as a way to get their name out their/market.

I have a regular who began playing in my game ~12 months ago and he owns his own beef jerky company. Brings racks of jerky to sell and throws a few in for the winner from time to time.

Get a few guys that do that sort of thing and suddenly you are not paying for entire spread.

 

[Jaxen]

And my answer is simple. I make a good living at my real job. This is for fun. I’m not risking jail time for anything, let alone for a hobby. I very much like that a cop can walk right in to my game, pull up a chair and play and there’s zero risk of anyone getting into any trouble!

Like hosting a Christmas party, I don't ask guests to defray the cost of the food for the pleasure of their company. I don't mind providing a bit for my guests. I used to refuse when players tried to give me money to cover it, now I graciously accept it and give it to my wife as a gesture to her for allowing these apes en masse in our home.
We do hold back part of the pot at tournaments for the Tournament of Champions at the end of the year, but 100% of all poker funds collected are paid out. Anything else is a player consideration.

 

[TheRealTeddyKGB]

I'd never ever take a rake.

Dealers give me 10% of tips (and I tip them when I'm playing) to offset my costs, and that percentage is capped at a small number of dollars anyway.

I'm not a lawyer but this sounds like a rake to me.

 

[valleychips]

Tips are entirely optional and are given to dealers. Dealers give me 10% of what they collect, capped at a very low amount, which is for my time/effort organizing things and to offset the supplies I bought (as they see it, they wouldn't have a chance to work/earn tips without my efforts). Nothing comes out of the pot. It's all at players' discretion. Thus, not a rake. Some nights we get tipped much better than others. Just depends on how the game goes. The dealers, who have worked professionally, actually proposed this arrangement. They all want to keep things above board and legal, as do I.

 

[BigGrizz]

Rake? Shit I dont even charge most of the time. I front the prize and let my players free roll. They buy food and beer. Occasionally a couple chip into the prize pot as their pizza contribution.

Also in California and dont want to run an illegal gambling ring.

 

[jackb205]

Tips are entirely optional and are given to dealers. Dealers give me 10% of what they collect, capped at a very low amount, which is for my time/effort organizing things and to offset the supplies I bought (as they see it, they wouldn't have a chance to work/earn tips without my efforts). Nothing comes out of the pot. It's all at players' discretion. Thus, not a rake. Some nights we get tipped much better than others. Just depends on how the game goes. The dealers, who have worked professionally, actually proposed this arrangement. They all want to keep things above board and legal, as do I.

Pre-law student and poker enthusiast here. I mean no disrespect, I'm just curious. The dealers giving you part of their tips (even if optional and voluntary) seems like it fits the definition for rake. Does the game still happen if that money doesn't hit your pocket?

 

[valleychips]

Pre-law student and poker enthusiast here. I mean no disrespect, I'm just curious. The dealers giving you part of their tips (even if optional and voluntary) seems like it fits the definition for rake. Does the game still happen if that money doesn't hit your pocket?

Yup. It did for a long time. It was the dealers who kind of hinted that I should get something. And I agreed. I personally think I shouldn't be in the hole for the non-playing part of the game, given that I organize everything, find the location (not my home), and shelled out for supplies, and any banking shortages are mine to cover. Not everyone on PCF who hosts games agrees (and that's fine!), but I carry this over as a guest and tip other hosts too. My dealers and players agree, and given that the dealers improve the game immensely, players are largely happy to tip them. My tiny cut comes from the dealers. Players know this. Again, rake is what is required to be removed from the pot for the purveyor's profit. That's the illegal part. We remove zero from the pot. We will never take money from the pot. Sometimes people don't tip. So be it. Sometimes people only tip a few bucks at the end of the night. So be it. It's all legitimate.

 

[LotsOfChips]

Again, rake is what is required to be removed from the pot for the purveyor's profit. That's the illegal part.

I think most gambling laws on the books consider any amount that benefits the person running the game as illegal. That includes time charges, seat rentals, building entry fees, sometimes membership fees, etc.

Shared food costs? Probably not. A percentage of the pot going to you as a "voluntary contribution to cover costs"? Possibly.

IANAL, but I'm sure a judge (or your local District Attorney or LEO) could tell you. Let's hope that doesn't happen.

that percentage is capped at a small number of dollars

capped at a very low amount

My tiny cut

How much is small/very low/tiny?...

 

[valleychips]

I think most gambling laws on the books consider any amount that benefits the person running the game as illegal. That includes time charges, seat rentals, building entry fees, sometimes membership fees, etc.

Shared food costs? Probably not. A percentage of the pot going to you as a "voluntary contribution to cover costs"? Possibly.

IANAL, but I'm sure a judge (or your local District Attorney or LEO) could tell you. Let's hope that doesn't happen.




How much is small/very low/tiny?...

10% capped at $30 max.

Also your comment "A percentage of the pot going to you as a "voluntary contribution to cover costs"? Possibly."

Not to be rude, but, this is factually incorrect... again. I'm not sure why some readers aren't catching the hugely important detail that has been stated already. No portion of the pot is EVER taken. Maybe that seems like splitting hairs to some, but it's hugely important legally.