Question. How would you rule on this? (3 Viewers)

[Trihonda]

At a buddy's home game last night.

On the river of a particular hand:

Player A bets out with $4 (pushing it forward)
Player B says "raise to $10" (and puts $10 in front of him).
Player A says "make it $18" (and splashes chips in front of him)
Player B tosses out an extra $8 onto his pile of bet chips.

Player A says that player B owes the pot $4, since he raised $18 over his initial $4, and the total should be $22. Player B says he's called and insists "make it $18" was not a raise of $18, but a raise "to" $18. He admits that had player A said raise "18 more" it might have been different. Player A agrees that he said "Make it $18", but argues that it still means $18 more.

It should be noted that Player A did put a total of $22 into the pot AS he was announcing "Make it $18".

I sided with Player B, but Player A clearly did not agree.

Who is correct?

 

[Shaggy]

B... A verbally declared a raise "to $18"
/thread

 

[Ronoh]

$18 total

 

[stocky]

Don't know if it's correct but I'd side with player B and tell player A to be clearer next time.

 

[Trihonda]

B... A verbally declared a raise "to $18"
/thread

Yup my thoughts exactly. I thought it was pretty clear here. Not a lot of room for debate, but player A clearly felt as if he was in the right. I also was the only person really advocating for player B. Granted, nobody was advocating for player A either, lol. The table just fell silent, which is what prompted me to post. Wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy.

 

[bentax1978]

Player B.

 

[CdnBeerLover]

You're not crazy. I also would have ruled it $18 total.

 

[DrStrange]

Verbal declarations > physical actions. Given A did put $22 into the pot, it is clear what he meant. But there seems to be no dispute as to what A said no matter what he thought he intended. I would rule the bet was $18.

DrStrange

 

[Mrs Poker Zombie]

I've never heard "make it $18" mean anything other than "make the bet total $18". Player B.

 

[BGinGA]

Another vote for $18 total.

Note that when Player A physically tossed in $18 on top of his original $4 bet, he was actually raising $12 on top of Player B's last $10 bet. Proper verbiage for that action would be either "raise $12 more", "raise to $22", raise $22 total", or just remain silent and let the chips speak. Also note that NONE of those use an $18 number. By stating "make it $18", his verbal action overrides his physical action.

Here's how I see it play out with differing terminology using the $18 number he spouted:

Player A bets out with $4 -- Player B owes $4
Player B says "raise to $10" -- Player A owes $6
Player A says "make it $18" -- Player B owes $8
Player B tosses out an extra $8 -- correct

Player A bets out with $4 -- Player B owes $4
Player B says "raise to $10" -- Player A owes $6
Player A says "raise to $18" -- Player B owes $8
Player B tosses out an extra $8 -- correct

Player A bets out with $4 -- Player B owes $4
Player B says "raise to $10" -- Player A owes $6
Player A says "make it $18 more" -- Player B owes $18

Player A bets out with $4 -- Player B owes $4
Player B says "raise to $10" -- Player A owes $6
Player A says "raise $18 more" -- Player B owes $18

And none of them results in $22 in chips in front of Player A (which was his physical action).

 

[Poker Zombie]

Although this was apparently a cash game, the TDA rules would be pretty clear:

Official betting terms are simple, unmistakable, time-honored declarations like: bet, raise, call, fold, check, all-in, complete, and pot (pot-limit only). Regional terms may also meet this test. Also, players must use gestures with caution when facing action; tapping the table is a check. It is the responsibility of players to make their intentions clear: using non-standard terms or gestures is at player’s risk and may result in a ruling other than what the player intended.

 

[Ronoh]

He admits that had player A said raise "18 more" it might have been different.

As BG pointed out "18 more" absolutely would have been different but it would have made it $28, not $22.

A bets $4
B raises to $10
In order for A to a)use the number 18 and b)raise to 22 he would have to completely ignore B's raise and say, very specifically, "I raise $18 more than my initial $4 bet"... and if he did this (once) I would hope he would be told in no uncertain not to do it in the future.

Betting rules are simple and they are specific so no one has to guess intent. Due to the fact that his argument makes no sense I have to assume it wasn't an angle... more likely he just lacks poker common sense.

 

[Trihonda]

Thanks all.

This was not an angle-shooting issue, but as stated, a lack of poker common sense.

There was another player at this game that did the whole, "I'll see your bet, and raise it...." Interestingly enough, the table all agreed this was simply a 'call'.

So, the table is batting .500 lol

 

[Mental Nomad]

Player A says that player B owes the pot $4, since he raised $18 over his initial $4,

Player A is wrong, because it's not possible to raise over his initial $4. You don't raise yourself. You raise someone else. (As others noted, B had already raised it to $10, so a raise of $18 would have meant a bet of $28.)

Player B says he's called and insists "make it $18" was not a raise of $18, but a raise "to" $18.

I've never known "make it X" to be anything other than a declaration that the total bet is now X.

 

[gopherblue]

Did anyone touch your card protector?

 

[Trihonda]

Did anyone touch your card protector?

Lol, are you 12? Not that it bothers me, but this is like the 10th thread where your only contribution is to bring up the card protector issue?

Again, I work in a profession where I get people call me names all day long and threaten to hurt me physically, so I don't get phased all that often over juvenile behavior or needling, but as a mod, I'm just curious if that's your intention or are you seriously just 12 years old? I'd suggest moving on, or starting to contribute meaningful content. The trolling just makes you come across as douchey

As I mentioned in the original thread, at the next meetup we attend together, feel free to grab my card protector in person. I'd love to show it off. Just make sure it's not during an all in moment.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I won't touch it, but if you're tanking against me, I will ask you about it. Constantly. Just for fun.

 

[Trihonda]

I won't touch it, but if you're tanking against me, I will ask you about it. Constantly. Just for fun.

That might be funny.

 

[pltrgyst]

PI've never known "make it X" to be anything other than a declaration that the total bet is now X.

Agreed. Just ask yourself what "it" is -- it's the total so far. It cannot be the amount he's raising.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Verbal declarations > physical actions.

I would disagree with this, first action is what counts. If I put in $30 and then said "make it $18" my physical and verbal actions are at odds with one another. The one which occurred first is going to be the one I should be held to.

As for the OP, I'm in the "bet equals $18 total" camp as well.

 

[links_slayer]

lolPlayerA

 

[Poker Zombie]

I would disagree with this, first action is what counts. If I put in $30 and then said "make it $18" my physical and verbal actions are at odds with one another. The one which occurred first is going to be the one I should be held to.

As for the OP, I'm in the "bet equals $18 total" camp as well.

Agreed. The first action, verbal or physical, is binding. However if the two are simultaneous, verbal > physical.

 

[courage]

This thread still going? Player A must be new to poker. Or has learning disability?

 

[gopherblue]

Lol, are you 12? Not that it bothers me, but this is like the 10th thread where your only contribution is to bring up the card protector issue?

Again, I work in a profession where I get people call me names all day long and threaten to hurt me physically, so I don't get phased all that often over juvenile behavior or needling, but as a mod, I'm just curious if that's your intention or are you seriously just 12 years old? I'd suggest moving on, or starting to contribute meaningful content. The trolling just makes you come across as douchey

As I mentioned in the original thread, at the next meetup we attend together, feel free to grab my card protector in person. I'd love to show it off. Just make sure it's not during an all in moment.

Holy sh!t, you work at the post office?

 

[Trihonda]

Holy sh!t, you work at the post office?

Nah, my job isn't THAT stressful.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I was going to guess Middle School Teacher.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Agree bet should be $18 total.

I've played with a couple newbies who say this though, and they mean $18 more than what they have personally already put in the pot, so I see where this guy is coming from.

He just needs to be educated on the right thing to say, and to either put out the amount he wants while just saying "raise" (and not splashing the pot) or to announce the total bet. "Raise to $22" would be what he wanted, although I assume this might be difficult for those mathematically disinclined.

 

[Trihonda]

I was going to guess Middle School Teacher.

Nothing this noble, but I do get to drive fast cars!

 

[lnlver]

The reason I never use the word 'to' in making raises. It's always "# total", "# all day", "# to play", etc.

Eric operates an ice cream truck in the 'burbs.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Why wouldn't you use the word "to"? It makes everything clearer. It's the same as saying total. "all day" and "to play" to me seem a little more vague.