Playing against a donk lead on a paired board flop (1 Viewer)

[ngmcs8203]

I posted this on 2+2 but I know not everyone here visits that forum.

This is a hand played in a $1/2/3 game at M8trix Casino last night. Effective stack is $325 and I had the table covered. I had been card dead for the night except the last 10 minutes so my image was probably 10/10/5 at this point.

We were 9-handed and the opposite side of the table was the splashy side. In this hand that side of the table was the BTN-UTG. They were the side of the table that would call down or bet any board, overcards or draws. They'd go to showdown heads-up in a $150 pot with Q8 suited and take pots from each other with a pair of 8s on the river. My side was definitely tighter (OMC two to my right, super TAGs on either side of me).

UTG opened for $15 and it folds to Hero in UTG+2 with . I raise to $45.

Middle blind and UTG calls. Pot: $135

Flop:

MB checks, BB leads for $30. At this point the lead here was super fishy. He had done this a few times to try and take down pots and it worked when my side of the table was in the blinds with nothing strong. Hero raises by sliding out a barrel of $5s. Dealer counts out $105. Whoops stacks were not right, oh well.

Folds to the BB who thinks for about a minute before jamming for his remaining $250. Pot: $520

Hero was getting about 4.5:1. I put him on a range of 22-77, 99, TT, QQ, Q9+, and any jack except J8. I suck at equity calculations so I just did an estimation of how many hands I beat and how many I'd lose to. I didn't feel like he'd play an 8, pocket jacks or even AA/KK that aggressively, so with that jam I felt like I was even more ahead than if he had just flatted. AJ with a backdoor flush draw felt like a premium in the moment. Raising with a premium when faced with a donk lead on a board where I should have more nuts than him seemed like the right thing to do. This was the biggest pot of the night at the table so I took a couple of minutes to think it through.

Hero?

 

[Santa123]

Call

 

[TheRealTeddyKGB]

Dude, an 88x flop is always Quads...
"2 small pair. Eights & eights!"

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

UTG opened, you raised, and one of the blinds called and UTG called. Do you have your positions off when you mention SB and BB? Just making sure I understand, in my head UTG is BB and the preflop raiser is the one betting and shoving, correct me if I'm wrong.

You said he's done this to take down pots, has he had to show his hand? Reraising all in after getting raised on both streets, hmmmhrrhgfnvb. Some bad players just decide to roll their eyes and shove if they've already decided to be aggressive, but waiting a full minute to do so is less spazzy.

Annoying but I probably call sans other reads, another $150 into that pot isn't going to kill me. You lose to 98, 88, 87, A8s, JJ, would he do this with AK/AQ or reraise pre-flop? You beat other Aces, JT, KJ, QJ, T9, random broadways that he's sick of playing.


Any other reads on this guy? Took you several minutes, what's he doing? How did he shove? I'm a broken record with these types of questions but just curious if you picked something up, love low stakes for that reason.

 

[ngmcs8203]

UTG opened, you raised, and one of the blinds called and UTG called. Do you have your positions off when you mention SB and BB? Just making sure I understand, in my head UTG is BB and the preflop raiser is the one betting and shoving, correct me if I'm wrong.

You said he's done this to take down pots, has he had to show his hand? Reraising all in after getting raised on both streets, hmmmhrrhgfnvb. Some bad players just decide to roll their eyes and shove if they've already decided to be aggressive, but waiting a full minute to do so is less spazzy.

Annoying but I probably call sans other reads, another $150 into that pot isn't going to kill me. You lose to 98, 88, 87, A8s, JJ, would he do this with AK/AQ or reraise pre-flop? You beat other Aces, JT, KJ, QJ, T9, random broadways that he's sick of playing.


Any other reads on this guy? Took you several minutes, what's he doing? How did he shove? I'm a broken record with these types of questions but just curious if you picked something up, love low stakes for that reason.

This is a 3 blind game. BTN is the SB, then you have the middle blind first to act post-flop and then the big blind. UTG in this hand is UTG and I am 2 seats to his left.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

This is a 3 blind game. BTN is the SB, then you have the middle blind first to act post-flop and then the big blind. UTG in this hand is UTG and I am 2 seats to his left.

But you change from calling someone the middle blind to referring to SB and BB? Just keep it consistent throughout the hand, or makeup a name for them for all I care lol. If BTN owes a $1, he's still the BTN.

"Middle Blind and UTG call the bet of $45"

"SB checks, BB leads out..."

Soooo the middle blind becomes the small blind for the sake of the hand history?

 

[ngmcs8203]

Ah my bad. This is why you don't post before coffee. MB = SB

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Ah my bad. This is why you don't post before coffee. MB = SB

Not a worry, didn't mean to be pedantic, just wanted to make sure I understood order of events.

 

[ngmcs8203]

You said he's done this to take down pots, has he had to show his hand?

Any other reads on this guy? Took you several minutes, what's he doing? How did he shove? I'm a broken record with these types of questions but just curious if you picked something up, love low stakes for that reason.

Hasn't had to show his hand when doing that, just pure aggression when the rest of the players check to him. I'd do it too with just about anything in his position. When I was thinking he was just focused on the board. Nothing special. It did pain him to shove. One of those "oh well" shoves that OMCs do when they limp-shove with AA. This guy was no more than 30 years old, headphones in but showed down some bad hands. That Q8s hand was him.

 

[MichaelBubly]

Gross. Don't think you can ever fold for that price though. Especially with back door diamonds. Seems like an 8 a lot, but I think give the fact he still has AJ, KJ suited, QJs, 109s, and even some J10 or J9s. You lose to 1x combo of Jacks, 1x combo of A8s, 2x combos of 89s and 78s,1x 88. Depending on the player he could at a super low frequency have slow played QQ. Losing to 8 combos. Maybe expanding a bit if the guy calling 3! out of position wider. But for that price you just have to call.

 

[ngmcs8203]

Was going to wait a little longer but figured some of you might be interested in the results.

Spoiler: Reveal the outcome

I end up calling. The runout is

He emphatically tables

Poker is alive and well.

 

[RagingAZN]

GRUNCH.

I think I prefer to call on the flop, if he has an 8 we’re toast anyway but by raising it lets him fold all his worse hands and continue with only hands that we’re way behind. The only draw is T9 and we have the backdoor diamonds. You say that he has done that donk lead a few times to steal the pots as well. There’s not too many cards that can come that we really don’t like (non-diamond K, Q or 7 is about it really).

Calling his $30 makes the pot $200 and you have $250 behind so easy to play for stacks on the turn.

 

[ngmcs8203]

GRUNCH.

I think I prefer to call on the flop, if he has an 8 we’re toast anyway but by raising it lets him fold all his worse hands and continue with only hands that we’re way behind. The only draw is T9 and we have the backdoor diamonds. You say that he has done that donk lead a few times to steal the pots as well. There’s not too many cards that can come that we really don’t like (non-diamond K, Q or 7 is about it really).

Calling his $30 makes the pot $200 and you have $250 behind so easy to play for stacks on the turn.

Yea I thought about a call too but I had actually been studying this spot as the PF aggressor earlier in the day and it’s actually a raise spot on the flop when a player donk leads. Little discusses a similar configuration too and says it’s a raise spot. I think his video was J66 and HJ vs UTG, so close enough.

 

[erdried]

how can one fold in that spot

 

[Phoe9x]

I think the real crime is playing 1/2/3 instead of 2/3/5 with the CA drop

 

[ngmcs8203]

I think the real crime is playing 1/2/3 instead of 2/3/5 with the CA drop

2/3/5 - 165bb cap is the biggest game in the room unless the deep stack game is running.

 

[Tight_Lay_DOWN]

Strat

I don’t know if this will help or not.

1. Poker is not a game played with cards that you bet on.
2. Poker is a betting game played with cards.

You were beat to the bet. It was an All in shove. (If I read it correctly)

So what is the propensity / frequency of a low limit opponent to shove all in without something stronger than what is shown on the board?

Background detail

J88 flop, you have a few options on a paired board. Missing flop.

1. If you have none of the flop, you can simply give up.
2. If you have none of the flop, you can fight for the pot.

Are you a fighter? (And this applies to your opponent, so answer these questions for you and the villains in the hand)

Can you fend off opponents at low limits on a paired board?

Are you deep enough to fend off opponents?(will the opponent call with 9 T straight draw).

Can you represent an over pair? Are you deep enough to fight on further streets?

Is your opponent short stacked and call any draw, call any trips even if they have a weak kicker, or any two pair by hitting the odd card?

Can you represent an 8?

J88 flop , connecting with the flop.

1. You connect with the flop on a paired board.

If so how strong?

Did you hit trips? with a big kicker or weak kicker?

Did you hit the odd card? With a big kicker or low kicker?

Any other outs? Runner runner straight? Runner runner Flush?

Can you hit top full house? Or lower full house ?

Your hand strength is all foreplay.

What matters most - what is your opponents action?

Do they typically bet every paired board if they have it or not?

Do they bluff often?

Will they shove all in on a bluff on a paired board?

Will they shove all In when they have the nuts?

Will they slow play when they have the nuts and usually bet lower amounts to keep you in the hand?

Do they tend to donk off with over pairs, because they can’t fold big pairs?

I guess what I am learning towards is that you have a great hand on the flop. Your opponent shoves. They could have an 8, an over pair, maybe a jack as well.

I am not saying you should fold, but the action speaks from this particular player in these limits. Since we might not put them on an over pair, they can have an 8, in which case we are behind, so a fold is justified. (Player strength / bet is telling) Is it likely they were dealt an 8 or over pair? Not too much, but they can have any combos of cards, don’t get stuck with blockers as a concept.

They showed strength , how strong are you?

Of course people will say, that all someone needs to do is move all in on you to make you fold. Those comments are Absolutes thinkers, which poker is not an absolute, and as you see other opponents tendencies you will adjust your actions accordingly. And if they make a move and pickup a small pot, you can get your money in on future hands when you are a much better favorite.

One might say, you could make a - tight lay down.


Anyway, this is just a guess.

 

[drdr]

Table -specific decision. In retrospect seems villain was successfully abusing tight players with aggression. Spotting villain's wide range may be the clue for that. Once that known your flop bet and call looks good. But in absence of that info, the bet and call don't seem as hot.

Knowing this is an aggressive player, would check-raising the flop be a better option? If only to slow them down on future hands? Maybe we don't want to do that?