Cash Game Player sitting down after play has started (1 Viewer)

[BigSlickTux]

Could someone explain how the blinds work with a new player to the table during play? The way I understand it is, the player has to wait until the button gets to him or he can post the SB and BB. Is this accurate?

 

[Rhodeman77]

That is the normal process in a casino. Most home games let players get a hand and pay the blinds when they get to them without posting.

 

[DoubleEagle]

A new player coming in normally does not need to post.

 

[upNdown]

A new player coming in normally does not need to post.

Often times when I’m a new player at the table they’ll ask me if I want to buy the button. I still have no idea what that means. I just pay whatever they want so I can play. It’s one of the few things I don’t understand about Holdem, probably because I don’t play cash in casinos very often.

 

[RocAFella1]

The only time you would buy the button is if you come in and are directly to the left of the button or sit out miss blinds and come back directly to the left of the button. Buying the buttons means posting both Small Blind and Big Blind so you pay for the privilege of getting the button on the next hand.

 

[BigSlickTux]

That is the normal process in a casino. Most home games let players get a hand and pay the blinds when they get to them without posting.

Okay. This is what I will do then. It also sounds the simplest. Thank you.

 

[BigSlickTux]

Thanks everyone for the prompt replies

 

[Colquhoun]

In online games, you can sit down and either wait to be dealt when the BB comes to you, or post the amount of a BB and be dealt in now.

 

[JustinInMN]

It depends. There are two basics rules a room could use.

1) All players are required to post a big blind regardless of position to be dealt in. (Most online games are this way, and my local room, Canterbury Park, is this way as well. It is actually is my personal preference.) Players taking a seat due for the small blind have the option of "buying the button" (more on that below) or waiting for the button to pass their seat and posting behind the button. Players joining also have the option of just waiting until the regular BB reaches their seat before posting regardless of where they sit.

2) Players may join existing games without posting until the BB reaches the seat. Players that are taking a seat between the button and blinds have the option of waiting for the button to pass their seat before behind dealt in without posting. (Most rooms in Vegas are this way now, and I think this is the overwhelming preference in home games.)

The initial draw for the button on a newly open game does create minor exceptions to either rule above. In a house using rule 1, players that did not draw a blind position are of course dealt in immediately. Players that are drawn to a blind position under either rule must post in turn or become "missed blind" status. Absent players become "missed blind" status immediately when the BB reaches their seat on the first orbit and going forward.

After the initial draw for the button players may only have the button in a hand after they have posted the small blind.

However, a player with "missed blind" status must either sit out until the BB position reaches his seat, or post both blinds to rejoin a game. (The BB portion of this post is "live", and the SB portion is taken to the center of the pot.)

Often times when I’m a new player at the table they’ll ask me if I want to buy the button. I still have no idea what that means. I just pay whatever they want so I can play. It’s one of the few things I don’t understand about Holdem, probably because I don’t play cash in casinos very often.

A player may "buy the button" in the specific situation where a player is joining a game (or rejoining after having stood up and missed the BB) in the seat between the button and the player due for the small blind. Such a player has the option to post both blinds for the next hand and take the button in the hand after that, thus receiving two extra hands before posting the next "regular" big blind.

The BB portion of the post is "live" (as if it were a normal BB it counts as part of the wager on the initial street), the SB portion of the post is dead money in the center pot.

I have played casino cash games for over 15 years now and I have given this a lot of thought, so if you'll indulge me ...

If you are first joining a game, you usually don't want to buy the button, especially if it's in a room using Rule 2 above. The best response to the dealer is "I'll play behind the button" or "I'll come in behind" and the dealer will understand you want to sit out this hand and be dealt in after the button passes your seat. If the room is using Rule 1 from above, the decision is closer. (Also game factors are a consideration too, relative to the size of the average pot, buying the button is "less expensive" in a NL game than a limit game, since the blinds make up a smaller portion of the average pot. If a game is loose enough, spending the 1.5BB for 2 extra hands may be worthwhile. IF the game has a lot of "raise-it-take-it" hands, probably just as well to save the money and sit out the couple of hands.)

Buying the button is clearly always to the player's advantage if they are re-joining a game and just missed the hand in which they were due for the big blind. In this scenario it's 1.5BB to rejoin one way or another or you sit out the entire orbit. In this spot one should always buy the button unless the game is extremely shorthanded (5-6 players or less)

When in doubt though, I say only buy the button when you are already missed blind and just missed your BB hand on return. Otherwise ask to be dealt in behind.

 

[BigSlickTux]

Thank you all for the replies.

@JustinInMN your explanation explains a lot to me, especially the strategy to it.

 

[Philia]

Very instructive answers here, thank you for this.

I have two last questions. Suppose I have just bought the button:

1. In this first hand, the dealer button is directly to my right and no other player is posting blinds (or the two players to my left are taking back any blinds that may have already posted). Right?
2. Preflop, the player to my left (who would otherwise have been the SB and is sitting in front of the big blind) is now first to act?
3. Postflop, however, I (the player with the bought button) am first to act because I am sitting directly to the left of the dealer position. Right?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Colquhoun]

Very instructive answers here, thank you for this.

I have two last questions. Suppose I have just bought the button:

1. In this first hand, the dealer button is directly to my right and no other player is posting blinds (or the two players to my left are taking back any blinds that may have already posted). Right?
2. Preflop, the player to my left (who would otherwise have been the SB and is sitting in front of the big blind) is now first to act?
3. Postflop, however, I (the player with the bought button) am first to act because I am sitting directly to the left of the dealer position. Right?

Thanks in advance!

I would think (but probably am entirely wrong), but when you sit down and the button is to your right, you are technically the small blind (but should post a big blind amount). The person to your left would have been the BB anyway, and remains so. This hand has 2 BB amounts in the pot.
The only difference between you, and the person that left, is that you are sitting in before paying the BB. Order of play continues as if you are the small blind.

Or, I'm way off...

 

[OfficerLovejoy]

Where I play you cannot join the game as the small blind.
You have to sit out one hand and only the big blind gets posted.
After that hand you're on the button and are dealt in without posting any additional blinds.

In every other spot you just join wherever at any time and don't post any additional blinds.

I don't like many of the weird house rules of German casinos but this one I like.

 

[JustinInMN]

Very instructive answers here, thank you for this.

I have two last questions. Suppose I have just bought the button:

1. In this first hand, the dealer button is directly to my right and no other player is posting blinds (or the two players to my left are taking back any blinds that may have already posted). Right?
2. Preflop, the player to my left (who would otherwise have been the SB and is sitting in front of the big blind) is now first to act?
3. Postflop, however, I (the player with the bought button) am first to act because I am sitting directly to the left of the dealer position. Right?

Thanks in advance!

Hmm this looks like 3 questions, but yes I will try and answer .

1. Yes, if you "buy the button" you are posting both blinds for the hand and the players to your left no longer have to post. You will note those players will post the blinds on the next hand when you have the button in front of you, so it all evens out.

2. Yes, when you are buying the button you have a live BB as part of your post, the player to your left is first to act.

3. Yes, that is correct as well.

Where I play you cannot join the game as the small blind.
You have to sit out one hand and only the big blind gets posted.
After that hand you're on the button and are dealt in without posting any additional blinds.

In every other spot you just join wherever at any time and don't post any additional blinds.

I don't like many of the weird house rules of German casinos but this one I like.

I know I was playing for a time in the early 2000s before it was in widespread use. So I think this concept may be less than 20 years old (or at least on Minnesota.). But yes, this is the upside is everyone can join a game from any position. And it offers a less punitive option if you sat out and orbit and returned to the game one hand late. Prior to buy the button, your only option would have been to post both blinds behind the button (which means playing two fewer hands) or sitting out the remainder of another orbit.

 

[JustinInMN]

I would think (but probably am entirely wrong), but when you sit down and the button is to your right, you are technically the small blind (but should post a big blind amount). The person to your left would have been the BB anyway, and remains so. This hand has 2 BB amounts in the pot.
The only difference between you, and the person that left, is that you are sitting in before paying the BB. Order of play continues as if you are the small blind.

Or, I'm way off...

You are not way off.

When you buy the button you are in the usual small blind position, but you have to post BOTH blinds. (not SB only as in the normal course of play with the button on your right.) Doing this means you are acting as the live BB in that hand. The players to your left no longer have to post blinds until you as the player having bought the button recieve the button on the next hand. (This prevents the two players on your left from being forced to pay the BB twice as you were thinking. That would be grossly unfair.)

Remember, the button does not stop at vacant or missed blind seats, what you are "buying" is the right for the button to stop at your seat on this orbit.

So when you buy the button it's still 1.5 BB in the starting pot, it is just that money all came from the same player instead of two different players and 0.5 BB of it is dead money in the center.

 

[JustinInMN]

The person to your left would have been the BB anyway, and remains so.

To clarify, this is the incorrect statement. If the seat you are occupying had remained vacant (or missed blind) this player would have been due for the small blind. He would have already been big blind on the previous hand, and the player about to recieve the button would have been the small blind in the previous hand.

But again, not "way" off, but if you just let the joining player post small only, it creates a situation where one player paid 2.5bb for the orbit and one paid 0.5bb. having the player instead "buy the button" for 1.5 BB makes it all even.

 

[Nanook]

As I started going through this thread I was about to start writing and @JustinInMN has beaten me to the punch with everything he is saying. If you have questions, just re-read what he said. He covers it really well

 

[Machine]

One oddity that can come up, is the BB shoves and busts out, there can be a dead small, and will be a dead button if no one sits down, if someone sits down after the dead small hand in the seat they are dealt in the hand no blinds charged.

 

[JustinInMN]

As I started going through this thread I was about to start writing and @JustinInMN has beaten me to the punch with everything he is saying. If you have questions, just re-read what he said. He covers it really well

We have the same "home track" after all. I feel like my earliest memory of Canterbury allowing "buy the button" around 2006 give-or-take. When is your memory of it being introduced?

 

[JustinInMN]

One oddity that can come up, is the BB shoves and busts out, there can be a dead small, and will be a dead button if no one sits down, if someone sits down after the dead small hand in the seat they are dealt in the hand no blinds charged.

This now depends on whether or not the room uses a forward moving button rule or the dead button rule. But that's a whole other question.

But yes, I can see in a dead button game how this circumstance could happen.

In a forward moving button game, the button always has to be at an active seat, even if this means occasionally additional blinds are posted on or behind the button.

 

[Nanook]

..... my earliest memory of Canterbury allowing "buy the button" around 2006 give-or-take. When is your memory of it being introduced?

I didn't start playing at CP right away when they opened except occasionally. The smoke filled room mostly kept me away until they stopped allowing smoking at at the tables. I don't recall exactly when that was, but maybe 2003 or 2004. I actually don't remember ever not being allowed to buy the button, but that could be from either a) old age/dementia or b) just not playing enough to notice in the early days....lol

 

[JustinInMN]

I didn't start playing at CP right away when they opened except occasionally. The smoke filled room mostly kept me away until they stopped allowing smoking at at the tables. I don't recall exactly when that was, but maybe 2003 or 2004. I actually don't remember ever not being allowed to buy the button, but that could be from either a) old age/dementia or b) just not playing enough to notice in the early days....lol

Yeah I hear you. I stated playing there in 2003 and smoking was already banned at the tables by then. But you could smoke at the bar behind a plastic divider iirc. The Minnesota indoor smoking ban was like 2007 or so?