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PGI group buy possibly forming on the blue wall (4 Viewers)

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I tend to agree with the notion that a hobbyist/forum administrator should have more of a duty to inform the noob members. The purpose of a chip forum is to learn and enjoy the hobby. As stated elsewhere, we spend shitloads of money on chips site unseen and PayPal thousands of dollars to each other via F&F based on reputation as many of us have never met. It's not smart or honorable to allow noobs to purchase crap unless they know it is crap...kind of like biting the hand that feeds you. I joined CT and PCF just after the divorce and migration (Dec. 2014). IMO that site owner deserves all the wrath that has come his way.

That said...Tommy has built this place and has involved himself in many projects in this community. I've never heard anyone speak of him as being less than genuine or trustworthy. That has great implications for a site beyond one vendor selling snake oil. There is a relationship between a site owner and the forum members that is more than a vendor selling chips. I also feel that Tommy would not allow his vendors to misrepresent what they sell.
 
Slisk makes a very good point. I don't hate CT for the Pharaoh thing any more than I hate Palm (or Apache by 12thMan's account), but it sows a seed of distrust. I've had 3 good deals with Palm, and one that was botched. When I was doing another project and needing labels, I contacted Palm (they did the labels for my CPS chips), but in the end went with Gear - and was extremely pleased. If Palm put together another GB, I'd be interested because it will be a unique opportunity. However, If I'm getting labels done for a non Palm project (and I am currently working on one now) I will go with Gear who's 1 for 1 record is better than Palm's 3 for 4 record (or 3 for 5 if you consider the Pharaohs - which I don't because I didn't buy them).

On the website front, PCF is pitching a perfect game. CT is not. I spend a lot of time on PCF, and it is full of awesome. I just don't have the time for CT. If you can only start 1 quarterback and you are looking at Can Newton and Derek Anderson, do you pick the one that has preformed better, or the one that has been around longer.

It is fair to question why PGI takes a GB idea and gives it to Anderson and leaves PCF on the bench.
 
12thMan said:
Oh, and by the way, to the CC flaking questions and personal experience; I have heard that the very first run of Milano chips had flaking issues with the $1s (I think), but for what it's worth I have had a set of Milanos that have seen plenty of play and there is zero flaking. There is a pretty vocal minority that puts Milanos as the worst of the CC chips in most any thread you read, but many many many other people consistently put them at the top of their lists as the best, or one of the best, me included. They might not be the best, everything is subjective, but for anybody who likes the Milanos I say GO for it, they are a VERY solid chip for the money with a beautiful design and for the most part shit on a lot of the other CC chips that are brought up as the best. To put it another way, the Milanos DUMP on the towerandspearcrosshatchedsuperbevel chips, like dump on them after taco and margarita night at the local dive bar kind of dumping on... JMO of course. ;) :D
Click to expand...

Love this. I'd getting a set of 1000 Milanos for my first set :)
 
12thMan said:
I'm not in agreeance that a vendor has any less of a duty to be truthful in advertising than a hobbyist would. In my mind the vendor should actually bear more onus to be "truthful" than a hobbyist, after all it's them that has to stand behind what they sell (at least they should) and if somebody thanks they are getting a Paulson like product and a china clay shows up it's the vendor that has to answer the "WTF?" email. I own an auto glass company (small business, very small :D ), if somebody made their own windshield and marketed it as "unbreakable", yet I knew it wasn't, I wouldn't tell people I had an unbreakable windshield to sell them, I would instead say "Well it's marketed as unbreakable, buuuuuuut here's the real deal...". This is an apples and oranges situation I know, but the point stands that I wouldn't want to advertise something that I knew doesn't mean exactly what it sounds like it means, I would feel a little weird about it. "Oh no, you heard unbreakable windshield? Well what they mean is their brand name is Un Breakable Windshields, not that they are unbreakable...." :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Quoting @12thMan for convenience, but multiple people in this thread have made some form of this argument and I disagree to an extent. There are arguments that could excuse all the language I've seen from Greg and/or the vendors as either technically correct or relating to a standard that is impossible to define. In that way, the vendors are abiding by the letter of the law. So is Greg. But I expect Greg to live up to the spirit of the law as well and do not expect the same of vendors.

Would I prefer that all vendors be totally transparent and forthcoming beyond their legal obligation? Yes, but vendors are forced to operate in a market in which few or none of the other participants are aware of or appreciate the differences among chips that we see as hobbyists.

When everyone else is marketing everything better than dice chips as clay, it's hard for me to expect Josh or Jim to take on the task of giving a crash course in chip material composition in the context of their ad. And if they just flat out say, "These are the best simulations of clay chips on the market," they'll instantly lose mindless customers who simply see "clay" and "not clay" and click the buy button.
 
jbutler said:
When everyone else is marketing everything better than dice chips as clay
Click to expand...

I basically agree with you, @jbutler, but these days we can't take any marketing at face value. It seems that vendors have a hard time not using the word clay even for dice chips. Without a doubt, using the terms clay, casino-quality, official casino weight, and like Paulsons results in a greater number of search-engine hits, which of course is what they're after. Caveat emptor, after all.

Capture.JPG
 
Poker Zombie said:
My CPS chips (I refuse to use the TS name, even though I ordered blanks, so they are true T/S chips) have seen hours of play. No crumbling. I can attribute this to either a different material/process, or the extreme bevel that would naturally resist flea-biting.

Either way, the china clay being sold as "true clay" is on par with dice chips being sold as "true casino weight". It's a reason to doubt everything from the vendor.

China clay being advertised on a hobby forum as "true clay" is on par with dice chips being sold as "true casino weight". It's a reason to doubt everything from the forum.

If CT is just information and the first page causes you to doubt everything inside, why would anyone feel the need to defend CT?
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I think you may be going a little far afield, here. I don't feel the need to defend Greg or his language in that promotional blurb nor Apache's language in their site. To buy them, you go to Apache's site. The vendor is Apache. Greg designed the inlay.

Here's the language at Apache's site:

"The Pharaoh’s are the closest budget priced chips we have that compare to a Paulson. Each chip is solid clay and is custom molded just like a Paulson. The chips have a soft feel and the dull thud sound of more expensive chips. The chips weigh 10 grams each. The technology of poker chips has greatly improved and we can’t believe how nice these chips are for the price!

Please note that there are two different versions of these chips. The Pharaoh’s were originally made by Paulson and were the best selling Paulson chip ever made. Paulson stopped making these chips in 2009. The Pharaoh’s design was so popular that we had to make them again on our new China Clay chips."

I can argue each of the underlined sections (or I could excuse it to salesmanship).

I don't think that or the description on Chiptalk is the reason to doubt everything on Chiptalk. The reason you should doubt everything on Chiptalk (AND PCF) because ...wait for it...wait for it...ITS A FREAKING INTERNET CHAT ROOM.

The chips are $.36 each. People buy dice chips for their first set, some sort of chip like this for their second set (did I mention these chips are $.36 each!!!!!), some form of better chip (in my case it was casino paulsons) for their third set(s) and then pony up for customs.

I get why so many people hate Greg. They can't stand that he charged for the site then let it go to shit. Fine. I just think that indicting the entire content of the site (of which I contributed to for many years) doesn't feel right.
 
Jeff said:
People buy dice chips for their first set, some sort of chip like this for their second set (did I mention these chips are $.36 each!!!!!), some form of better chip (in my case it was casino paulsons) for their third set(s) and then pony up for customs
Click to expand...

I don't know Jeff...maybe I'm a maniac. My first set were ebayed Paulson Terrible's and I ordered a CPC set a couple weeks after that. I've handled a few dice chips at other games, but have no idea what a china clay chip feels like. :p
 
Jeff said:
I think you may be going a little far afield, here. I don't feel the need to defend Greg or his language in that promotional blurb nor Apache's language in their site. To buy them, you go to Apache's site. The vendor is Apache. Greg designed the inlay.
Click to expand...

This was not true at the time of the post. At that time, Greg was advertising chips that could be bought through a PayPal portal serviced by the Chip Room and displayed in the exact same post as the deceptive language.

I agree that it doesn't follow that we should dismiss the entire content of a website, but unless and until Greg removes the language, it makes total sense to treat him as a swindler.

Jeff said:
Here's the language at Apache's site:

"The Pharaoh’s are the closest budget priced chips we have that compare to a Paulson. Each chip is solid clay and is custom molded just like a Paulson.The chips have a soft feel and the dull thud sound of more expensive chips. The chips weigh 10 grams each. The technology of poker chips has greatly improved and we can’t believe how nice these chips are for the price!

Please note that there are two different versions of these chips. The Pharaoh’s were originally made by Paulson and were the best selling Paulson chip ever made. Paulson stopped making these chips in 2009. The Pharaoh’s design was so popular that we had to make them again on our new China Clay chips."

I can argue each of the underlined sections (or I could excuse it to salesmanship).
Click to expand...

I agree with this as to the vendors and pretty much said as much above, but if you attempted to argue that the underlined sections are accurate representations of the understanding of a long-time hobbyist on this forum, you would be dismissed as either a moron or a con artist by the bulk of the membership because we know better.
 
Just to clarify my own post...

I could argue each of the underlined sections as misleading/exaggeration (or see it as salesmanship)
 
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slisk250 said:
I don't know Jeff...maybe I'm a maniac. My first set were ebayed Paulson Terrible's and I ordered a CPC set a couple weeks after that. I've handled a few dice chips at other games, but have no idea what a china clay chip feels like. :p
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Okay, some people are chip prodigies! They skip the more rudimentary steps and go straight to empty their bank account. Others actually have hoarding tendencies. Does anyone come to mind?
 
3 chip manufacturers left? That's interesting. All our chips are coming from the same places.
 
Of course I do doubt everything I read on the internet. But it is also my #1 source for information that I do not have first-hand experience with (samples rule). Since trust is an issue, I occasionally need a "safe" spot. Someplace that I can go where information is vetted for accuracy. PCF is one of those locations.

Sure, someone can post something incorrect here, but the community at large will correct them. Similar to Wikipedia, except it is much easier to track all the changes, because all the posts are right there. Unfortunately, with the front page ad, you cannot put a post directly below it to correct the "true clay" claim, or to argue it staying up. Thus, (IMO) it sullies the reputation of the entire site, the same way that one bad deal with a vendor (that goes uncorrected - mistakes happen) besmirches the vendor's reputation.

I have no issue dealing with Apache, PGI or CT. Apcahe and PGI both deal in items at prices that I cannot beat, and their service is good to very good. I would not be surprised if someone received Pharaohs from Apache and said "These are not like Paulsons", and returned them for a full refund. I have never heard of it happening, but if it did I would not be shocked. When I first read the Pharaoh ad and learned that BGinGA wanted it fixed to be honest, I was shocked that his request was apparently ignored.

CT provides very little that cannot be replicated here, and the service here is nothing shy of excellent - a claim CT cannot make.
  • Homepage has a Misleading ad
  • Poor Service
  • Limited without paid membership
vs
  • Homepage has a link to free give-a-ways
  • Problems pointed out have been resolved immediately
  • Asks forum members opinions before implementing changes (re: Tapatalk)
  • Refuses money (though he'll gladly take it from you at the poker table)
 
The CPS series was a massive success from a sales point of view. Although similar (and by many accounts better) the Majestics did not enjoy the same level of success. Apache's initial massive order of CPS chips have seen a number of colors (key denoms) sold out. There have not been many CPS chips floating about on the secondary market (outside of the forums).

Seeing how Apache still has chips from the first CPS buy, but is lacking T25s, T100, and T5000, it will be hard to move any more of those particular chips without a reorder (or a massive price-cut). Another CPS GB makes sence (and cents :D).
 
Does anyone know who these 3 large manufacturers in China are?
 
BTW, if anyone wants to see an example of a totally and thoroughly transparent advertisement for "china clays", take a look at Stephan's write-up on Sidepot here.

The relevant portion is quoted below.

Stephan said:
About the Chinese Clay Knock-off poker chips
  • These Chinese Clay Knock-off chips are a decent mid-range poker chip. As with
  • most attempts at knocking off true high-end clay poker chips, these plastic
  • chips fall well short of that goal (Otherwise counterfeiting in casinos would
  • be rampant). And of course you’ll see chips very similar to these being
  • hawked as “the real deal” all over the place with the unscrupulous
  • sellers charging upwards of $0.75 per chip. We prefer to be a little more upfront
  • about what we’re selling. These are plastic chips made out of a hockey
  • puck type material and they honestly feel pretty close to clay chips. They’re
  • not, but it’s the best knockoff we’ve seen in terms of feel so we
  • decided to offer them as a cheap alternative to our more budget-minded customers.

  • These non-denominational chips come in seven colors with simulated dual edge
  • spots. They can be used as is just fine, or if you’d prefer to add an
  • inlay/sticker the center area is intentionally recessed for that purpose.


  • Standard casino weight - 10 grams.

  • Good stackability - These chips stack quite well, unlike

  • most low-end chips which are slippery.


  • Nice feel – Pretty close to a true clay chip feel – the best knock-offs we’ve seen yet!
  • Affordable - A good chip at a great price.
Click to expand...

That, to my mind, is the model of the highest possible ethics in practice in this market.
 
jbutler said:
take a look at Stephan's write-up on Sidepot here.



That, to my mind, is the model of the highest possible ethics in practice in this market.
Click to expand...


Agree 100%.


And also, after reading everybody's replies and thinking about it a little more deeply than I have in the past (never really had a reason to think hard about my opinions on the CC description issue), I have changed my opinion just a little. I don't give anybody a pass on the description but I definitely can see the point as valid that a "true" hobbyist should be a little more clear in the description they use. I said in my earlier post that the most onus should be on the retailer selling the product, I have now shifted my belief that it is as important for both parties (hobbyist/retailer) to be accurate in that sort of description. Neither side should be vilified or given a pass over the other, both are equally egregious in my mind.

I may be more sensitive to the business side of things because of how I try to run mine, but I will say to the people that have brought up the "caveat emptor" issue I say that that is a little sad when we are dealing with companies that we put on a pedestal as chip junkies. Caveat emptor is real, but I wouldn't want it to have to be thrown in front of my business name if somebody was going to get work done by me. "Yeah, they sell poker chips, but caveat emptor..." and "Yeah, he sells and installs auto glass, but caveat emptor..." are not a good look, and while it is the best practice to go through life with your eyes wide open always looking out for someone trying to get something over on ol' number one, if the company is trusted/honest enough it is not needed to be said. What we end up with is caveat emptor for whatever site sells the China Clay chips with a misleading statement (I think we all agree the statement, where ever it appears, can at best be labeled as misleading) but I don't think it applies the same way to Sidepot, it's very easy to see the difference on this one particular issue. I would much rather be "Sidepot" than "caveat emptor" if it's my business and I guess that's what led me to think the retailer should reword the description out of a sense of CYA.



Seriously though, love them Milanos.... ;) :D
 
If China Clays disappear, we're gonna see more insane price increases.

It's crazy what's happening to the home market these days.

I was just thinking about selling my CPS cash set. I guess I better hold on to 'em.
 
There seems to be a huge range in pricing for the CCs, and arguably they are all similar in quality/materials (think about it, 3 factories left???). I guess people are paying for the design?

But not sure what other options there are. Cheaper chips = slugged plastics, like Poker Knights (15c), then you get the CCs (30c-50c) and for me, it looks like the Milanos win the value argument here, and then you get the customs ($1+).

What other options do us home noobs have? I've love to find a 15c-25c chip that offers a step up from the CCs, or customs for 50c, but I guess that's delusional given the current lack of competition.

How much were these chips back in 2004/5 when poker peaked. Anyone remember?
 
12thMan said:
Agree 100%.


And also, after reading everybody's replies and thinking about it a little more deeply than I have in the past (never really had a reason to think hard about my opinions on the CC description issue), I have changed my opinion just a little. I don't give anybody a pass on the description but I definitely can see the point as valid that a "true" hobbyist should be a little more clear in the description they use. I said in my earlier post that the most onus should be on the retailer selling the product, I have now shifted my belief that it is as important for both parties (hobbyist/retailer) to be accurate in that sort of description. Neither side should be vilified or given a pass over the other, both are equally egregious in my mind.

I may be more sensitive to the business side of things because of how I try to run mine, but I will say to the people that have brought up the "caveat emptor" issue I say that that is a little sad when we are dealing with companies that we put on a pedestal as chip junkies. Caveat emptor is real, but I wouldn't want it to have to be thrown in front of my business name if somebody was going to get work done by me. "Yeah, they sell poker chips, but caveat emptor..." and "Yeah, he sells and installs auto glass, but caveat emptor..." are not a good look, and while it is the best practice to go through life with your eyes wide open always looking out for someone trying to get something over on ol' number one, if the company is trusted/honest enough it is not needed to be said. What we end up with is caveat emptor for whatever site sells the China Clay chips with a misleading statement (I think we all agree the statement, where ever it appears, can at best be labeled as misleading) but I don't think it applies the same way to Sidepot, it's very easy to see the difference on this one particular issue. I would much rather be "Sidepot" than "caveat emptor" if it's my business and I guess that's what led me to think the retailer should reword the description out of a sense of CYA.



Seriously though, love them Milanos.... ;) :D
Click to expand...

Agreed. If I ran my own business, none of my customers would have to worry about caveat emptor. The same goes for in an ideal world. However, in the real word, consumers need to protect themselves just as much as we poker players need to protect our cards. IRL, people shoot angles. People lie. People mislead and misdirect. False advertising abounds. Counterfeit goods are common. As far as human failings go, these shenanigans are relatively minor.

I think that as a community, we are for the most part honest, accurate in our descriptions, and above board in our dealings with each other. We even prepay for purchases from other members, most of whom we only know through an internet forum. I love our little corner of the world. :)
 
abby99 said:
As far as human failings go, these shenanigans are relatively minor.
Click to expand...


Amen sista! Even though I've written a book on my feelings about the matter I have to agree with that statement. It's the internet and everything is hind sighted to death by people who act like they have never even thought about picking their nose in the privacy of their own house let alone would actually do such a deviant thing, but if I think about all the other things that are sold or posted on the internet I have to agree we have it very good!!
 
abby99 said:
We even prepay for purchases from other members, most of whom we only know through an internet forum. I love our little corner of the world. :)
Click to expand...

Talking about trust: During GCOP group buy I had USD 20 000 of other people's money in my bank account before I made the payments to BCC. And I live on the other side of the Globe. My friends can't still believe it today....I too love this trust we all have on each other here.
 
abby99 said:
Agreed. If I ran my own business, none of my customers would have to worry about caveat emptor. The same goes for in an ideal world. However, in the real word, consumers need to protect themselves just as much as we poker players need to protect our cards. IRL, people shoot angles. People lie. People mislead and misdirect. False advertising abounds. Counterfeit goods are common. As far as human failings go, these shenanigans are relatively minor.

I think that as a community, we are for the most part honest, accurate in our descriptions, and above board in our dealings with each other. We even prepay for purchases from other members, most of whom we only know through an internet forum. I love our little corner of the world. :)
Click to expand...
I'm on my 3rd business. At all 3, we pride ourselves on customer service and quality. We make sure our customers are satisfied, even if it means losing money instead of making money.

When you're operating with high quality people, and good QC, it is usually such that customers are just satisfied by design. Not trying to cut every corner, or nickle and dime every client leads to repeat business and a good reputation. And if you're doing these things, you can get away with not charging the lowest price, and you can afford the occasional loss/freebie.
 
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