PAHWM - Omaha hi-lo WSOP circuit event (1 Viewer)

RainmanTrail

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This is a hand from the WSOP Circuit event I played in yesterday. We're playing a mix of Limit Omaha hi-lo and Stud hi-lo with the game from this round being Omaha. I'm in the cutoff, and the action gets folded around to me. I look down at :2c::3d::4d::qc:, which for those of you who may not be as familiar with this game, is not a premium hand, but it's certainly playable and worthy of a steal attempt from late position. So, I decide to raise (although I think a call is fine here too). The button has been playing really solid poker all day. I don't know who he is, but several big names pros came up to talk to him multiple times throughout the day, and he clearly knew what he was doing in both games. He calls my raise. Norman Chad is in the small blind, who has also been playing well, though fairly straight forward. He calls as well. The big blind is an older guy who has been mostly quiet all day. I haven't really seen him getting out of line. Seems to be playing mostly ABC poker, but he is getting short on chips, though not super short. He calls as well, and we see a flop.

Flop comes out :tc::3h::3s:, so hero flops trip 3s with a backdoor 3rd-nut low draw and a backdoor Q-high flush draw.

Norman Chad checks from the SB
BB checks

Hero... Check? / Bet?
 

upNdown

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Bottom trips usually ends up very expensive in Omaha, in my experience. And I don’t usually go for back door low draws. But I have little to no experience with limit O8. I guess since it’s limit, I wouldn’t mind paying 1 bet to see another card with the money that’s already in there, so I’m probably check-calling?
 

DrStrange

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It would be useful to know how significant a big bet is, can we get a rough idea of stack sizes.

In a big bet game, we all know the dangers of a strong second-best hand. This is not so much of a concern in a limit game.

Hero has every reason to hope his hand is best at the moment. I think bet / call is good. < villains might well wait till the turn to spring any traps. The bets are double those on the flop. >

DrStrange
 

JMC9389

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Check/call
 

Legend5555

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I'm not a limit O8 guy, but I can see it going either way here. The only person that should have a decent amount of Ts is the BB. But A3xx can a be a real thing from either the B or SB. But obviously there can't be much 3x out there at this point given our hand. How often do we rate to get raised on this board exactly? It can't be much, and there is only one person IP on us. I think a lot of A3Wx hands 3 bet us pre, especially from the button player in this late open configuration.

Ultimately I think bet/call a raise and check/call are both fine options. Hard for anyone to really raise you with worse than A3xx I'd think. Plus we have a decent though obviously not amazing backdoor low draw if we do get raised. We are only really in jail against A23x.

But I barely play O8, so what do I know. :)
 

grebe

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This is a hand from the WSOP Circuit event I played in yesterday. We're playing a mix of Limit Omaha hi-lo and Stud hi-lo with the game from this round being Omaha. I'm in the cutoff, and the action gets folded around to me. I look down at :2c::3d::4d::qc:, which for those of you who may not be as familiar with this game, is not a premium hand, but it's certainly playable and worthy of a steal attempt from late position. So, I decide to raise (although I think a call is fine here too). The button has been playing really solid poker all day. I don't know who he is, but several big names pros came up to talk to him multiple times throughout the day, and he clearly knew what he was doing in both games. He calls my raise. Norman Chad is in the small blind, who has also been playing well, though fairly straight forward. He calls as well. The big blind is an older guy who has been mostly quiet all day. I haven't really seen him getting out of line. Seems to be playing mostly ABC poker, but he is getting short on chips, though not super short. He calls as well, and we see a flop.

Flop comes out :tc::3h::3s:, so hero flops trip 3s with a backdoor 3rd-nut low draw and a backdoor Q-high flush draw.

Norman Chad checks from the SB
BB checks

Hero... Check? / Bet?
Easy bet. We led the action pre, we have a decent chance of having the best hand, there isnt much to draw to. If we get called, or if we get raised, we can see the turn.
 

MrCatPants

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Undertrips are dangerous, but this is a really dry board otherwise and you are in position.

That said, a bet here can only come from hands like 10 10 x x, 10 3 x x, 3 3 x x, and A A x x or K K x x given the four way flop. Your preflop raise does make those overpair hands possibility if you continue to bet. If you bet and get called or raised though, this should freeze you as your bet has left you pretty face up and someone raising should know that and be very limited to raising with 10 10, 10 3, or A 3 hands.

I prefer a check here, let button take a stab with a KKxx hand if he has it and call. Seeing a free turn isn't bad either - if a non ace low card comes in, your draw likely isn't good.
 

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Mostly ABC players, when checked to you - you should bet 100% of the time. It gives you the maximum information and keeps control of the hand. If you check, with 4 BB in the pot, you are pretty much committed to check/call down the rest of the streets, which is the wrong way to play o8.
 

RainmanTrail

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Flop is :tc::3h::3s:

SB (~30BB) checks
BB (~10BB) checks
Hero (~25BB) bets with :2c::3d::4d::qc:
BUTTON (~30BB) calls
SB folds
BB calls

Hero looks at the board, looks back at his cards, then jokingly holds his hand out and starts counting his fingers out loud, "1, 2, 3, 4, 5... how many 3s are in this deck?" (yes, I actually did that)

Turn card brings :tc::3h::3s::2h:

Hero makes a full house with 3s full of 2s

Big blind (who has about 5 big bets left in his stack) leads out after check calling us on the flop...

Hero: Call? / Raise? / Fold?
 

JMC9389

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I sigh call down the rest of the way playing for only half the pot with the third nuts. Could tens full be slow playing?
 

DrStrange

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BB is in desperation mode. This could be effectively his last hand. Sure, he might have a monster, But the truth is - Hero IS the monster at the moment. Hero has the third nut on a short, stacked table.

However, Hero is getting no part of low. Lots of low cards, more than half the deck ( 24 out of 44 cards) No free cards to draw at low. I think Hero should raise

DrStrange
 

MrCatPants

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Ditto the raise. If one of them has you beat thy have you beat, but you have to charge the low draw and or naked 3s if that's all you are against.
 

upNdown

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I sigh call down the rest of the way playing for only half the pot with the third nuts. Could tens full be slow playing?
I don’t think it pays to slow play in a fixed limit split pot game?
 

RainmanTrail

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BB is in desperation mode. This could be effectively his last hand.

I believe BB had either 12k or 13k to start the hand, and we're playing 1k-2k limits with 500/1k blinds in this hand. It does sound short, especially when you think in terms of NL Holdem tourney stack sizes, but there's actually quite a bit of play left in limit tourneys with a stack that size. Average stack at the time was 25k. Players haven't started busting out quite yet. At the final table, the average stack in these events is usually around 15 BBs, and rarely ever more than 20BB, so that helps put it in perspective. I would say he's in a spot where he would want to be selective, but not desperate.
 

RainmanTrail

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Pre flop action:
SB (~30 BB)
BB (12 or 13 BB)
Folds around to Hero (~25 BB) in the cutoff
Hero raises with :2c::3d::4d::qc:
Button (~30 BB) calls
SB calls
BB calls

Flop is :tc::3h::3s:

SB (~30BB) checks
BB (~10BB) checks
Hero (~25BB) bets with :2c::3d::4d::qc:
Button (~30BB) calls
SB folds
BB calls

Turn card brings :tc::3h::3s::2h:

Hero makes a full house with 3s full of 2s

Big blind (who has about 5 big bets left in his stack) leads out after check calling both of us on the flop...

Hero briefly goes into the tank. We just filled up, but this is a bad spot. The bottom is a very strong player. He would have reraised pre-flop with any AA holdings worth playing, as well as a strong hand like A23x. So I'm fairly confident that he's not floating us with AA on the button. Possibly a hand like KK, or more likely, he just has the other 3 but isn't full. That or he is full and is just waiting for the turn to put in a raise. But for the big blind to overcall in this spot, he has to have a hand. One of us, at least, has a 3 and could very easily be full (like we are), as 3s and 2s often get played, and a T on board is a scarier partner to the 3s than a 9, 8, or 7 would be. So when BB leads out into a bettor and a caller on that board, especially given his stack size it tells me he almost has to be full, because he should should know that at least one of us has the other 3, if not both. Generally these sorts of flops either just go bet/fold or they get into a raising war where both players have it.

I decide that BB must have slow played TT or at least T3 here and that he's worried that if he checks, it might get checked back if we just have something like AA and A3, and allowing a free backdoor low draw to get there would be a mistake. I entertain the idea that we could both be holding 23, but it's just not worth the risk to me for what I see as a chopped pot at best, and a good chance of only getting 1/4th of the pot if one of the remaining 24 low cards in the deck falls on the river, or even nothing if one of them only has a naked 3 but hits one of their other cards on the river.

Hero folds
Button calls

River :tc::3h::3s::2h::8h:

BB bets
Button calls

BB has what?
Button has what?
 
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RainmanTrail

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River :tc::3h::3s::2h::8h:

BB bets
Button calls

BB shows :9s::9c::js::5d:
Button shows :as::qh::qd::6s:
Button scoops the pot with QQ for high, and A6 for a runner-runner low.

Hero's jaw drops as he says, "Wow! Good bet!" before admitting to folding the 23 full house. Norman Chad attempts to hold back his laughter but fails to contain it. He definitely thought it was pretty funny. As did I :ROFL: :ROFLMAO: (always be willing to laugh at your mistakes. And remember, it's just a game)

Did hero make a mistake? If so, where did hero go wrong? I'll share my take after others have a chance to share theirs.
 

MrCatPants

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We've all been there where we make a 'soul read'/hero fold where we turn out wrong. Crazy what these folks were floating with - have to think this loose play would have showed up in other hands

That said with this action I don't think we can fold to a single lead from first to act on the turn the way the flop went.
 

DrStrange

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Hand values in poker change towards weaker hands under short stack situations. people "go to war" with remarkably strange hands. Blinding out is 100% certain if the shorties do nothing. At some point you have to expand your hand selection or get crushed by the blinds.

If Hero was playing deep stack / big bet Omaha, there would be plenty of reason to fold a weak full house with a one-way hand.

I don't agree with this perspective in a limit game with short stacks. That game is fought over medium quality hands. Hero's hand on the turn looks plenty strong to me. However, I am check/calling the river with no chance to win the low half.

I have no experience playing with skilled villains for huge money, I have lots of experience playing for trivial stakes vs weak villains. This was a long time ago - back before Congress killed the on-line poker boom in the USA. Who knows how the games Hero plays actually run? There could be a whole world of thinking in the nosebleed games that I can't begin to understand.

Perhaps I am a rube, but I thought Hero's hand was far stronger than he did at the table -=- DrStrange
 

RainmanTrail

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Thanks for the comments. Lots of good feedback being made. Here are my thoughts:

I do believe I made a mistake, but I don't think it was isolated to this hand. I believe my mistake was made prior to the hand rather than during it, or rather that my earlier mistake snowballed into me making another mistake in this hand. I think my primary mistake was not paying close enough attention to the player in the Big Blind earlier that day. I had been on my phone far too much, and just casually observing the players at my table. Somehow, I had convinced myself that this player was playing fairly straightforward poker, and that he wasn't really getting out of line much. I now feel as though this couldn't possibly be the case after having seen this hand play out though. At every point in this hand that he had a decision to make, he couldn't possibly have made a worse one. 99J5 is a very easy fold from the big blind to a steal attempt, and over-calling on a T33 flop with it, out of position, is very strong evidence that someone simply doesn't understand how to play this game at a very fundamental level. These should not have been difficult decisions for villain to make. It's rare to see someone misplay a hand quite this poorly in these Omaha tournaments. The guy on the button was probably paying much closer attention because he is a pretty solid player and I rarely saw him looking at his phone. He probably floated behind on the flop with his QQ hoping to see if we'd give up on the turn and/or get lucky by spiking a Q, which isn't a bad play. It's basically the same read as I had when I thought KK holdings were in his range. Plus, he had an emergency low backup. Had I called the BB's turn bet, he might have folded his AQQ6 (I certainly would have).

That said, I don't think I can find a call here on this turn, given the read I thought I had on the BB and the button. I think I'm making this fold 100% of the time in similar future spots where I believe my opponents to be competent thinking players. If I had previously picked up on how bad this player actually was, then I could maybe have found a call, but I would absolutely hate it if so. But even if I think he's that bad, I still might fold, simply because I don't think I'm giving up much equity at all here, and I'd rather just look for a better spot to put my chips in since it's a tournament. If it were a cash game and I knew he was that bad, I'd just call though. In which case, it's just a simple 'call and cross your fingers' situation. I pride myself on my ability to read players though. I think at least knowing what type of players you're up against is one of the most important aspects of poker, as your decisions should always be based on that info. This was one of those moments where I had to eat a slice of humble pie because I was wrong about the player in the big blind, despite having sat across from him for several hours by this point. And not just by a little bit. I suppose it's plausible that he had in fact been playing tight ABC poker all day long until this hand, and then like @DrStrange said, he felt like he was super short and just had to make a move, there's certainly some merit to the idea that he may have felt that way, but I just feel like anyone capable of playing a hand that poorly must have given off some hints somewhere along the way that I failed to catch because I had my nose buried in my phone. It wasn't quite a Robbi Lew level bad call, but it's certainly bad enough that you don't see someone play a hand that poorly every day. At least not in these Omaha events.

It's also worth remembering that there are 23 remaining low cards that could fall on the river out of the 44 cards left in the deck, so I'm losing half this pot a little more than half the time even if I'm good. The pot is 13 BB and it's going to cost me at least 4 BB to get to showdown, and if the low falls, I could easily find myself getting squeezed and not even be able to make it to a showdown. I need to win at least 40% of the time just to break even here. Maybe more like 50% given my reverse implied odds and the likelihood of running into a squeeze.
 

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