My first strategy thread - 1/3 NL (1 Viewer)

[AWenger]

Stopped by Horseshoe Baltimore on the way back from Thanksgiving holiday. Bought in for $260 at 1/3 NL (100 - 300 max). 10 players. Player stacks were around $200-300 or so, except one player who had a big stack.

First 3 hands were uneventful, i folded preflop, someone either limped or raised to $10-$15, a couple callers. Hands played out ordinarily.

On my 4th hand I'm dealt, I'm UTG, and look down at (I raise to $10. 7 players, yes 7, call, including a woman in the BB to my right. SB folded.)

Pot is $81. My stack $250. Flop is BB checks to me. Action?

Also interested in thoughts on preflop bet.

 

[Bradcorn]

So you have 5 behind? I'm going to tread slowly but would lead out pretty small at $25.

I am debating a check/call on the flop especially if a bet gets some folders.

I'm okay with preflop and leading postflop if you can fold away this flop if action escalates quickly

 

[upNdown]

I'd make a pot sized bet to see where you are.

 

[EasyE]

I'm thinking there's a flush draw and maybe a K J/10 out there if I bet 35 and get a couple calls. Get to 3 way play and hope for a blank on the turn. AK isn't a big
concern at this point with preflop calls.

 

[Perthmike]

1/3 can be crazy at times. I’d also be leading out at this point, somewhere between $30-$60, hoping not to get re raised and probably folding if one of the morons gets excited and re raises with his inevitable k2 or k3.

 

[DrStrange]

KQo is a marginal hand from UTG at a full table. Same thing with AJo. Not that I advocate folding and absolutely would not limp, just that UTG position leads to trouble many times. Hero might consider a more careful line with bad position when just joining a table or playing at a tough table. Hero goes into the hand not knowing enough about table norms - or maybe $10 / eight players is a crazy once-off event.

I recommend betting $50 and see what happens. That is just over 60 percent pot. 60% - 65% pot is my default bet sizing.

Hero is at risk of being out played here. With so many people in the hand and no villain reads, Hero should respect aggression as meaningful / dangerous. I lean towards a Bet/Fold line if raised on the flop.

For what it is worth, Hero shouldn't greatly discount AK / AA / KK or much of anything else. No villain reads means hero just doesn't know. The seven cold callers is a clue that this table might have some unconventional players at it.

Good luck Sir, I think you are going to need it! -=- DrStrange

 

[Jimulacrum]

KQo is a marginal hand from UTG at a full table. Same thing with AJo. Not that I advocate folding and absolutely would not limp, just that UTG position leads to trouble many times. Hero might consider a more careful line with bad position when just joining a table or playing at a tough table. Hero goes into the hand not knowing enough about table norms - or maybe $10 / eight players is a crazy once-off event.

I recommend betting $50 and see what happens. That is just over 60 percent pot. 60% - 65% pot is my default bet sizing.

Hero is at risk of being out played here. With so many people in the hand and no villain reads, Hero should respect aggression as meaningful / dangerous. I lean towards a Bet/Fold line if raised on the flop.

For what it is worth, Hero shouldn't greatly discount AK / AA / KK or much of anything else. No villain reads means hero just doesn't know. The seven cold callers is a clue that this table might have some unconventional players at it.

Good luck Sir, I think you are going to need it! -=- DrStrange

+1 to everything here.

Though KQo is a not-terrible hand, and it can often play well from late position, it can be trouble in early position. With 7 opponents, you (a) may be beaten already or (b) if ahead, are likely to be facing any number of hands that could improve to beat you. Don't concede the pot just yet, but tread cautiously if there's any major action.

Don't expect to be winning any big pots with your pair of kings. If a big pot develops here, chances are that you're losing it.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I think a bet of $40 should thin the field and get you an idea of what you're up against. With flush and straight draws out there, I would imagine anyone with some goofy 2 pair is going to make it known now. Then again you might also see someone raise KJ or KT here believing they have the best hand and "have to protect their King from draws", hard to say as we don't know much about your cast of characters

I know my example is a tourney so not apples to apples, but players do some pretty strange things. In a tourney and EP raises, I shove and another guy cold-calls with KQ off, folds back to the original raiser who reraises (when he should just be shoving his AK suited) and KQ guy calls. Flop is T94 with two hearts and AK of spades shoves all-in and KQ off calls chasing the gutshot (I had AK too) and the J falls on the river.

So obviously KQ kills us both with some terribad play, but will remember that time he won a huge pot calling multiple raises and a shove cold with KQ, and then flopping a gutshot and getting there, and will continue to play that way

 

[Pierna]

I would tend to overbet this one, about $100? Not sure if it’s a correct play from a technical point of view.

I’d then consider the possibility of folding if someone shoves in my face, depending on the player.

If I think about it a bit more it’s actually difficult to imagine what I would really do having sat there for just 5 mins and not knowing the players’ styles. Maybe just a standard $50/$70 bet.

 

[dkersey]

1/2 pot size bet ($40) to thin it out and see where you are.

 

[AWenger]

Good input everyone. Not sure how long I should allow for other replies, but comments seem similar, so I'll proceed with the hand.

Recap:
$1/3 NL I'm UTG, w (I raise to $10. 7 players, call, including a woman in the BB to my right.)
Pot is $81. My stack $250. Flop is BB checks to me. Action?​

The truth is I'm not loving my hand versus 7 opponents, but I'm also not too worried about AK being out there. My first thought was to bet, probably half-pot, I think I would definitely bet with 2 or 3 callers, but with 7 callers, and 6 players behind me to act, I start to think if I bet $40 and someone reraises, what would I do then -- I probably would need to fold at that point. So I change my first thought, and think about checking -- hoping someone else hit a king, a flush draw or a straight draw, and may lead out and/or by checking it would give the appearance that I missed the flop, and am giving up, like I have a small pair or AQ.

I check. UTG+2 checks, then next player in middle position (MP) bets $40. 4 players fold around, but then the woman in the BB thinks for about 5-10 seconds, and calls the $40.
Pot is now $161. My stack still $250. I'm facing a $40 bet and 1 caller. [Stack sizes: effective stacks are $250. I think MP has me covered by a little bit, and I have the BB covered by a little bit, and UTG+2 is about same stack as me FWIW.] Action?

 

[justsomedude]

Jam it.

Let's gambooooool!

 

[Jimulacrum]

Good input everyone. Not sure how long I should allow for other replies, but comments seem similar, so I'll proceed with the hand.

Recap:
$1/3 NL I'm UTG, w (I raise to $10. 7 players, call, including a woman in the BB to my right.)
Pot is $81. My stack $250. Flop is BB checks to me. Action?​

The truth is I'm not loving my hand versus 7 opponents, but I'm also not too worried about AK being out there. My first thought was to bet, probably half-pot, I think I would definitely bet with 2 or 3 callers, but with 7 callers, and 6 players behind me to act, I start to think if I bet $40 and someone reraises, what would I do then -- I probably would need to fold at that point. So I change my first thought, and think about checking -- hoping someone else hit a king, a flush draw or a straight draw, and may lead out and/or by checking it would give the appearance that I missed the flop, and am giving up, like I have a small pair or AQ.

I check. UTG+2 checks, then next player in middle position (MP) bets $40. 4 players fold around, but then the woman in the BB thinks for about 5-10 seconds, and calls the $40.
Pot is now $161. My stack still $250. I'm facing a $40 bet and 1 caller. [Stack sizes: effective stacks are $250. I think MP has me covered by a little bit, and I have the BB covered by a little bit, and UTG+2 is about same stack as me FWIW.] Action?

Unfortunately, that sequence of bets tells you less about your opponents' hands than, say, if you had bet and gotten raised. BB is probably looking at some kind of draw or weak king, or maybe even something like 88 that she's having a hard time dropping. Expect to have her beaten most of the time. (The rest of the time, she's slowplaying a set.)

MP, though, could have anything within reason: a set, two pair, a weaker king, AK, or a flush draw or 45 for the OESD. I wouldn't go much weaker than that because he did bet into an eight-handed pot with several unknowns still left to act behind him. On the other hand, he did bet half-pot, but I wouldn't read too much into that without knowing anything about him. Anyway, that's a pretty broad range considering how little leeway you have left to act given the pot size.

Calling would be giving a cheap card to any draw (and odds are there's at least one), but raising would be putting your whole stack in the middle when you may get snapped off by a big hand. Unless MP or BB is a big donkey, you're probably not getting called by a weaker hand if you shove (maybe a nut flush draw, but that's not ideal for you anyway with two cards to come). No real reads on opponents, no earth-shaking information from the betting sequence. Boy, does this suck.

A call might be the way to go here. Control the pot size and see another card before you decide to make a move. If the turn comes a spade or ace, that's your cue to GTFO. A six is judgment-call territory. Anything else (especially a queen or king) is a shove, since you'll be in a $201 pot with $210. Doing it this way may entice a weaker king to call. Also, if BB is slowplaying a monster, she may shove the turn, which would make it an easy fold for you.

Kinda awkward spot, though. Raise to $15 next time preflop, or just dump it. Not a huge loss to fold KQo UTG, honestly.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I think we're ahead of both opponents the majority of the time here. With straight and flush draws present, and so many opponents in the hand, one would "assume" most players with a better king than you, a goofy two pair or a set would not make it cheap to outdraw them.

I'm guessing the BB has a draw of some sort, the original bettor a weaker king or perhaps a draw themselves. I'm not a fan of not charging your opponents to outdraw you. You could play it safe and call to try and get a safe turn before you shove, but with as much as there is in the pot now I like the shove to scoop it (or make them pay the max to try and draw out on you)

 

[kmccormick100]

I’m std opening to $12 in a $1/3 game, more over limps. When you do hit top pair with a great kicker on the flop I’m betting ~50% of the pot to get called by draws and worse kings, if somebody does have two pair or a set, you’ll hear from them and can assess based on their raise size, and it’s probably a fold for more than 2x your bet, your range looks like AA AK KK raising utg and leading into 7 callers. Very few players at this level are raising a flush draw unless it’s a combo draw like 45ss, and even then not every time, if you get raised you’re usually no good, and aren’t giving up much by folding.

 

[AWenger]

(I'll plan to reply at around 8pm eastern tonight, to allow a couple more hours for input.)

 

[EasyE]

I'd make it $100 to go, not expecting a reraise but fold/call getting to heads up vs flush draw.

 

[AWenger]

Ok. Here's the next action.

Recap:
$1/3 NL I'm UTG, w (I raise to $10. 7 players, call, including a woman in the BB to my right.)
Pot is $81. My stack $250. Flop is BB checks to me.
I check. UTG+2 checks, then next player in middle position (MP) bets $40. 4 players fold around, the BB thinks for about 5-10 seconds, and calls the $40. Pot is now $161. My stack still $250. I'm facing a $40 bet and 1 caller. [Stack sizes: effective stacks are $250 behind.]
​

I think we're ahead of both opponents the majority of the time here. With straight and flush draws present, and so many opponents in the hand, one would "assume" most players with a better king than you, a goofy two pair or a set would not make it cheap to outdraw them.

I was thinking along the lines of Anthony and EasyE above. When MP bet $40, I was planning on calling, but after the BB also called the $40, I thought it was likely that at least one of them had a draw, and I was not too worried about AK. I thought about shoving all-in, but it just seemed too much, like it would fold out some lesser hands. I was hoping to get some draws and/or weaker kings to call. I raised to $120. MP just calls the additional $80. BB folds.

Turn is . Pot is $360. I've got $130 left. Action? (fairly straightforward here, no?)

 

[krafticus]

Shove

 

[WedgeRock]

Is a shove gonna induce a fold? He just called an $80 check raise into a $280 pot. Why wouldn't he call $130 into $490?

Feels like the spade draw.

 

[AWenger]

Is a shove gonna induce a fold? He just called an $80 check raise into a $280 pot. Why wouldn't he call $130 into $490?

If your first question was for the action on flop, If I shoved then, after the MP $40 bet & BB $40 call, the bets would have been me raising to $250 (instead of $120), and MP would have needed to call $210 into a pot of $490. (When I see the numbers written out after the fact it makes it easier to see pot odds, but when I'm at the table, it just felt like a really big raise if I went all in for $250 on top of a $40 bet. But you're right, a big flush draw probably doesn't fold to an all-in by me on the flop.

 

[EasyE]

Fairly straight yes I agree. Shove to get two ways to win the hand, fold or showdown. If he has me beat I'd call his raise anyways so might as well get it in.

He could be holding A rag flush draw though. Sometimes I might call if I know he's aggresive to induce a bluff. As he might just fold if bet against. But tonight I shove

 

[Jimulacrum]

Gotta shove on the turn. That's essentially the decision you made by raising the flop.

 

[justsomedude]

Turn is . Pot is $360. I've got $130 left. Action? (fairly straightforward here, no?)

You're locked into a shove at this point. A check just delays the inevitable, and you eliminated any further aggression by not jamming the flop. Now you'll shove and make the pot almost $500, and he's going to call the $130 with pretty much anything except a bluff or bottom pair. Even a spade draw is giving him the odds to call.

Jam it and cross your fingers.

 

[ChaosRock]

I'm on a slightly different line (than the ones suggested) here myself...

Pre-flop, when a table is call-happy, I'm probably open mucking KQo and balancing my strong opening with some small pocket pairs and a handful of combos of suited connectors. Easier to play out of position against a large field imo.

On the flop, I like checking here against 7 other players. I don't think we ever have a bluff range here against that large of a field. Is hero leading with Ax of spades against 7 players? Probably not. So when we bet, we are basically saying we have AA/AK/KQ probably. Also, with that many callers, there might be some 2 pair combos out there, K3s/K2s, and sets. I like a check/call to pick up players taking a stab.

On the turn, I'm not sure I'd shove either... Probably prefer calling off and picking some worse Ks badly played or a flush draw shoving. I think if we shove, I'm not sure we get called by worse here, neither can we fold better.

 

[AWenger]

Thanks for the input. I'm also curious to know if the turn would have been a spade, how do you play it? (Do you check-fold to an all-in from MP at this point, preserving the remaining $130. I think if the turn had been a spade, I like to say I would have folded.)

Recap: 1/3 NL I'm UTG, w
Flop is MP calls my flop raise. BB folds. Pot is $360. My remaining stack $130. Turn: ​

Results: After MP does not raise the flop, but just calls, and the turn is not a spade (or an Ace), I feel fairly confident I'm ahead. While I'm in the middle of the hand at the table, my brain isn't really computing the exact math of pot odds, but I know my stack is a small fraction of the pot, and MP will be getting good pot odds to call. I go all-in for my remaining $130. I'm glad when MP doesn't insta-call, he asks for a count first, and after he finds out it's $130, (into a pot of now $490), he decides fairly quickly to call my all-in.

River is I show my hand, now 2 pair. MP doesn't show but looks back at his hand, the board, and my hand, and mucks face down. He kind of muttered something under his breath about 'king - queen' like he might have had me beat before the Q came, and I asked him 'did you have me beat before the queen' but he didn't answer and I didn't want to press the issue to someone who just lost a pot of $620.

Post hand notes:

• The BB told me she folded a queen high spade draw (Qs Xs). Later on, she wasn't the type to gamble all-in on draws, so her story checked out. Other players might have shoved this hand on the flop.
• After a few more rounds at the table, there were several players calling small raises or limping with hands like K2, K3, 32, or 45. MP wasn't the most active 'calling station' but was involved in a lot of hands later on.
• In hindsight, I think if MP had a 2-pair hand or AK hand on the flop, he probably re-raises me on the flop, right? Unless he's hoping the BB comes along as well.
  
• MP's reaction might just have meant he missed a monster draw like , or some other As Xs hand that just missed completely.

Pre-flop, when a table is call-happy, I'm probably open mucking KQo

I was wondering how many others would comment on pre-flop selection. I tend to agree with this, I would sometimes muck KQo in UTG position myself. But what I didn't say in my post was that I only stopped at the Casino to take a bathroom break and to play a short session of poker on my way home. So when I was dealt KQo, I thought of folding for a second, but it flashed through my head 'why did I bother to even stop and play if I'm not playing this hand' so I put in a raise.

 

[Anthony Martino]

After MP calls your check-raise you have to shove the next street. So many bad players out there will have a hand like KJ or KT and think it's the nuts and they absolutely can't fold top pair.

If he had AK he certainly played it overly passive given the draws and the number of players in the field.

 

[Casamada]

KQo is fine pre for average live cash games.
On the flop there are a lot of hands you beat thus betting for value is the best option.
As played your check raise sizing is bad, we should aim at leaving in our stack a quantity somewhat close to the pot size for the next street/bet. As an example if you min raise to 80 and get one caller the pot will be ~240 and your stack ~200. (Except if your opponent has a leak like being a calling station then you can then deviate to exploit) OFC this is of no use if your ranges are not balanced e.g. always having value hands/bluff hands, etc.