Monster draw time to play for stacks? (1 Viewer)

duecesneverloses

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Playing 1/2nl at Hardrock Tampa. Hero is on the button with A5hh. Utg limps and gets 3 more limpers behind. Co opens the pot for 13. Hero 3bets to 42. Folds back to Co who makes the call. V is a loose passive regular. 90ish in thepot. V has about 100 dollars left after calling preflop. Hero covers. Flop comes KQJhhs. Villain goes deep into the tank deciding his action he cuts out chips multiple times decides ultimately on a check. Hero???
 
Check and give him a chance to make a move on the turn. bet about 1/2 pot if he checks again (make it look like you're trying to steal it)
 
Check and give him a chance to make a move on the turn. bet about 1/2 pot if he checks again (make it look like you're trying to steal it)

But we have a a nut flush draw and a gutshot straightdraw. This is one of the best flops we can ask for when we decide to 3! pre.
 
I don't think you will get any more out of him. Probably flopped a set so you might want to end it and take the $90
 
Preflop: So what is Hero thinking when three betting a villain with $140 - $150? Villain is loose-passive, so Hero shouldn't expect villain is making a move. Maybe the goal was a fold preflop? If villain calls, he is very close to pot committed holding one pot sized bet post flop.

Flop: Hero has to jam all in here. That flop smashed Hero's 3-bet range, so there is some hope villain might fold a hand like AQ or 99. Hero needs to finish his story - there is one bet left and Hero is strongly promoting the notion that he holds JJ+ / AK with his perflop 3-bet. Take the full bet and hope for a fold.

Hero is going to call a turn shove if he checks the flop. Knowing this, Hero is far better off getting what fold equity he is entitled too.

For what it is worth, I think the preflop 3-bet was ill advised given the stack sizes unless there is reason to expect a fold from the table. From my perspective, a passive villain who bets generally means business.

DrStrange

PS Hero's table image might matter a lot, yet it is missing from the original post.
 
Preflop: So what is Hero thinking when three betting a villain with $140 - $150? Villain is loose-passive, so Hero shouldn't expect villain is making a move. Maybe the goal was a fold preflop? If villain calls, he is very close to pot committed holding one pot sized bet post flop.

Flop: Hero has to jam all in here. That flop smashed Hero's 3-bet range, so there is some hope villain might fold a hand like AQ or 99. Hero needs to finish his story - there is one bet left and Hero is strongly promoting the notion that he holds JJ+ / AK with his perflop 3-bet. Take the full bet and hope for a fold.

Hero is going to call a turn shove if he checks the flop. Knowing this, Hero is far better off getting what fold equity he is entitled too.

For what it is worth, I think the preflop 3-bet was ill advised given the stack sizes unless there is reason to expect a fold from the table. From my perspective, a passive villain who bets generally means business.

DrStrange

PS Hero's table image might matter a lot, yet it is missing from the original post.

I don't include things like table image/reads etc because I don't factor that into my decision much at all. If you play good poker doesn't really matter what your opponent is doing If your line is +EV this is what matters. Hero straddles lots of buttons has gotten comments by aggravated loose passive players about my isolation raises but haven't been getting out of line much. I am usually one of the more active players at a table online I would be considered a decent LAGGY player.

Every time I 3! I would rather a fold than a call thats no risk free money thats why I 3!. Even if i have AA i would rather a fold pre flop because I win 100% of the equity in the pot whereas if i see a flop V will have a certain % of the equity in the pot unless I flop quads.

Flop: I agree wholeheartedly we need to jam Villain has 1:1 SPR so if he has a pair+ he should be stacking off and we have close to 50% of the equity in the pot. I can see merits to calling pre bc 1/2 is so loose passive that opens are much too strong.
Yeah on this flop I will never check back when its HU and Villain has 1:1 SPR lets capitalize on some fold equity.

I call him a loose passive opponent due to post flop tendencies he is a loose passive player who understands its better to raise than to just call pre flop so I give his raise over the limps less merit than most of the players at the table.

I understand that it can be ill-advised to 3! the hand pre flop but I am primarily an online player I am comfortable 3! light. I
don't want to take this hand 6 ways to a flop If I call here I think majority of the time we will see a flop 5/6 ways. This was my Major motivating factor as to 3! pre.

I misread the OP. Thought you flopped a flush. Bet 1/2 pot and take the money
If we bet 1/2 pot V is left with 50 and the pot is 200. So we need to jam flop here.
 
Hero might find merit in learning a wider range of skills. Live poker rewards a different skill set than on-line. Hero might easily be a terror in an on-line game yet not nearly as formidable playing live poker.

The idea that "If you play good poker doesn't really matter what your opponent is doing If your line is +EV this is what matters." greatly misguided. I am taking this to mean Hero doesn't depend on villain reads to plan out the hand, not that he plays poker disregarding what the other players are doing in the actual hand. Disregarding the villain play in the current hand sounds exceptionally reckless. I further observe feeling "comfortable" making the 3-bet does not mean it is "profitable".

While it might be true that Hero can possess such a huge skill edge that he can ignore the historical actions of the rest of the table, it certainly is not close to the most profitable option open to Hero. Hero is missing out on some seriously profitable upgrades to his live poker game by disregarding what the villains are doing at the table. This is 10x more important when playing live vs a consistent cast of villains - say in a regular home game.

I think Hero has glossed over his logic regarding the profitability of the preflop 3-bet. He is directly risking $42 to win $24 and is headed to a post flop where it seems more likely that Hero is going to lose $140-$150 vs winning ~$50 (if he gets a postflop fold from villain) or winning $150 - $160 if villain stacks off vs Hero's holding. Hero correctly observes that the flop was exceptionally good for his holding, and even then Hero is basically in a coin flip vs villains stack-off range. (actually that isn't true. Villains stack off range includes a lot of sets and AK / AQ hands which crush hero's draw.)

There is a lot to be discussed about both streets here. I think it is an excellent thread - there is a lot to be learned.
 
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Hero might find merit in learning a wider range of skills. Live poker rewards a different skill set than on-line. Hero might easily be a terror in an on-line game yet not nearly as formidable playing live poker.

The idea that "If you play good poker doesn't really matter what your opponent is doing If your line is +EV this is what matters." greatly misguided. I am taking this to mean Hero doesn't depend on villain reads to plan out the hand, not that he plays poker disregarding what the other players are doing in the actual hand. Disregarding the villain play in the current hand sounds exceptionally reckless. I further observe feeling "comfortable" making the 3-bet does not mean it is "profitable".

While it might be true that Hero can possess such a huge skill edge that he can ignore the historical actions of the rest of the table, it certainly is not close to the most profitable option open to Hero. Hero is missing out on some seriously profitable upgrades to his live poker game by disregarding what the villains are doing at the table. This is 10x more important when playing live vs a consistent cast of villains - say in a regular home game.

I think Hero has glossed over his logic regarding the profitability of the preflop 3-bet. He is directly risking $42 to win $24 and is headed to a post flop where it seems more likely that Hero is going to lose $140-$150 vs winning ~$50 (if he gets a postflop fold from villain) or winning $150 - $160 if villain stacks off vs Hero's holding. Hero correctly observes that the flop was exceptionally good for his holding, and even then Hero is basically in a coin flip vs villains stack-off range. (actually that isn't true. Villains stack off range includes a lot of sets and AK / AQ hands which crush hero's draw.)

There is a lot to be discussed about both streets here. I think it is an excellent thread - there is a lot to be learned.

We have differing opinions here sounds to me like I am more in the balance camp and you are in the exploitative camp. It's just two different ways to approach the game. If I have a relevant sample size on a villain then I will change my play but if I don't have a sample on a player I defer to my balanced strategy. I just don't think playing with a player for an hour is relevant sample.

I have a polar 3! range so It is balanced with mainly value and some bluffs. A5s is a great hand to 3! bluff because it blocks AA/AK/AQ. For live play I even take a lot of the more mediocre hands out of the light 3! range.

In my home games I do implement live reads image previous hands etc. I just need a reasonable sample with a villain to actually know how someone plays. A 2 hour session with a player live is at best 50 hands this is a meaningless sample imo. The only thing in a small sample I take into account is basic VPIP and PFR type stats but i still don't give that much merit to them.

Im always Ok flipping off with a combo draw like this because there is dead money from the limpers and a small amount of fold equity from villain.

The action goes Hero Jams all in and Villain folds AKo faceup.
 
Playing 1/2nl at Hardrock Tampa. Hero is on the button with A5hh. Utg limps and gets 3 more limpers behind. Co opens the pot for 13. Hero 3bets to 42. Folds back to Co who makes the call. V is a loose passive regular. 90ish in thepot. V has about 100 dollars left after calling preflop. Hero covers. Flop comes KQJhhs. Villain goes deep into the tank deciding his action he cuts out chips multiple times decides ultimately on a check. Hero???


Why didn't you say you were in town? I would've said hi, live about 30 minutes from Hard Rock Tampa!

This seems like FPS for 1/2 NL, at least preflop. Against a typical 1/2 lineup I'd lean towards calling on the button with the suited ace because ALL those other limpers are going to come along and build a nice pot, and you have a hand that can get paid off when it hits by opponents who are usually going to be stations (and you have the positional advantage of the button in this hand)

As played, shove flop given stack to pot ratios.
 
Playing 1/2nl at Hardrock Tampa. Hero is on the button with A5hh. Utg limps and gets 3 more limpers behind. Co opens the pot for 13. Hero 3bets to 42. Folds back to Co who makes the call. V is a loose passive regular. 90ish in thepot. V has about 100 dollars left after calling preflop. Hero covers. Flop comes KQJhhs. Villain goes deep into the tank deciding his action he cuts out chips multiple times decides ultimately on a check. Hero???
Not sure why you posted a strat thread when you obv played it perfectly with no other solutions worth consideration. :cautious:
 
I love the logic that allows someone to simultaneously advocate balanced ranges and skipping table reads "because the sample size is too small".
 
We have differing opinions here sounds to me like I am more in the balance camp and you are in the exploitative camp.

In poker, you should always be exploiting the situation as best you can. That's the whole game, right there.

I agree with BG here; you should be considering the other player's current image/play style as well as your current image. If you do not, you're leaving a lot of money on the table.

Why?

Because your approach, that of falling to a default strategy which is generally +EV, is inherently weak. A game-theoretic strategy may be unbeatable when pitted against a pro or against another game-theoretic thinker, but that's not my goal when playing poker. My goal is to win the maximum amount of money versus a given opponent. This requires a strategy that is at least attempting to tailor to that opponent.

Your goal shouldn't be to play in a way +EV in all situations. Your goal should be to play in a way that is Max EV in the current situation... and that will lead to a higher EV over time.

A 2 hour session with a player live is at best 50 hands this is a meaningless sample imo.

I see this thinking as your fundamental flaw.

You are correct in that this is a small sample size from which to draw a statistical inference regarding behavior in any given situation (such as how they play given starting holdings in a given position.) But you are not limited to statistical inferences from those aggregated outcomes. If the hands you see indicate a given play style, you can, in fact, infer a great deal about that player at the moment.

Someone whose prior play was solid, but who has just been on a lucky streak and has own a bunch of money on good river cards is liable to loosen up. If you see a few behaviors that suggest this has happened, you should immediately adjust your play to take advantage of this.

Likewise, you absolutely must think about your own image. These random strangers at a live table have no prior knowledge of your play style. They've seen you for an hour. In that hour, if I've been card-dead, I've been uninvolved - therefore, most of the table thinks I'm very, very tight. I use this knowledge to increase bluffs and semibluffs and isolation plays - anything that uses a show of strength, I can leverage. Or if I've been getting a lot of solid cards and they've seen me play a lot. They won't necessarily see a lot of showdowns - I'll be taking down pots - but they've seen my play a lot. Then I know I shouldn't start going out on a limb... but when I do hit cards, I can bet more heavily. Why? There will be people saying, "he can't ALWAYS be hitting cards." So I tighten up, especially against the smart, statistics-minded game-theoretic players. They hope to take down my bluffs, so I'll just bet solid hands. I'll even overbet my good hands, making them think I'm bluffing, getting huge value from their marginal hands. But I won't tighten up against those players at the table who seem to be superstitious, who are afraid to "get in a hand" against me, because I'm "hot." This is nonsense, but it's nonsense they believe. And whenever one of the statistical guys tries to call down one of my fake bluffs (value overbets), the superstitious guy will be all the more certain I'm just "running hot."

Most people at a $1/$2 game are not thinking this deeply - they won't be adjusting their play against their current image. But you certainly should... and you should take full advantage of the knowledge they give you about their current play style. Not to do so is very -EV.
 
For what it is worth, I think the preflop 3-bet was ill advised given the stack sizes unless there is reason to expect a fold from the table.

Agreed. What was hero's plan to V 4bet shove? Calling off with A5hh? Certainly value in isolating with some weaker hands in our range but villain stack size poses a problem.
 
Why didn't you say you were in town? I would've said hi, live about 30 minutes from Hard Rock Tampa!

This seems like FPS for 1/2 NL, at least preflop. Against a typical 1/2 lineup I'd lean towards calling on the button with the suited ace because ALL those other limpers are going to come along and build a nice pot, and you have a hand that can get paid off when it hits by opponents who are usually going to be stations (and you have the positional advantage of the button in this hand)

As played, shove flop given stack to pot ratios.

Sorry I'll be here all week heading up to the casino mid afternoon and hopefully going to play a long session today. I get what your saying but in general its harder to realize all your equity in 6 way pot than a HU pot. Yeah having position on these guys is big and we do have a nut suit and the field is generally so bad at bet sizing I will be getting direct odds to draw to my flush.

I love the logic that allows someone to simultaneously advocate balanced ranges and skipping table reads "because the sample size is too small".

I dont understand how balanced strategy and sample size are in any way correlated.

Not sure why you posted a strat thread when you obv played it perfectly with no other solutions worth consideration. :cautious:

I get it I'm coming off as a douche here. I just don't like taking pots 6 ways where I will have trouble realizing all of my equity and I 3bet bluff so A5s is a good candidate because of blockers.

In poker, you should always be exploiting the situation as best you can. That's the whole game, right there.

I agree with BG here; you should be considering the other player's current image/play style as well as your current image. If you do not, you're leaving a lot of money on the table.

Why?

Because your approach, that of falling to a default strategy which is generally +EV, is inherently weak. A game-theoretic strategy may be unbeatable when pitted against a pro or against another game-theoretic thinker, but that's not my goal when playing poker. My goal is to win the maximum amount of money versus a given opponent. This requires a strategy that is at least attempting to tailor to that opponent.

Your goal shouldn't be to play in a way +EV in all situations. Your goal should be to play in a way that is Max EV in the current situation... and that will lead to a higher EV over time.



I see this thinking as your fundamental flaw.

You are correct in that this is a small sample size from which to draw a statistical inference regarding behavior in any given situation (such as how they play given starting holdings in a given position.) But you are not limited to statistical inferences from those aggregated outcomes. If the hands you see indicate a given play style, you can, in fact, infer a great deal about that player at the moment.

Someone whose prior play was solid, but who has just been on a lucky streak and has own a bunch of money on good river cards is liable to loosen up. If you see a few behaviors that suggest this has happened, you should immediately adjust your play to take advantage of this.

Likewise, you absolutely must think about your own image. These random strangers at a live table have no prior knowledge of your play style. They've seen you for an hour. In that hour, if I've been card-dead, I've been uninvolved - therefore, most of the table thinks I'm very, very tight. I use this knowledge to increase bluffs and semibluffs and isolation plays - anything that uses a show of strength, I can leverage. Or if I've been getting a lot of solid cards and they've seen me play a lot. They won't necessarily see a lot of showdowns - I'll be taking down pots - but they've seen my play a lot. Then I know I shouldn't start going out on a limb... but when I do hit cards, I can bet more heavily. Why? There will be people saying, "he can't ALWAYS be hitting cards." So I tighten up, especially against the smart, statistics-minded game-theoretic players. They hope to take down my bluffs, so I'll just bet solid hands. I'll even overbet my good hands, making them think I'm bluffing, getting huge value from their marginal hands. But I won't tighten up against those players at the table who seem to be superstitious, who are afraid to "get in a hand" against me, because I'm "hot." This is nonsense, but it's nonsense they believe. And whenever one of the statistical guys tries to call down one of my fake bluffs (value overbets), the superstitious guy will be all the more certain I'm just "running hot."

Most people at a $1/$2 game are not thinking this deeply - they won't be adjusting their play against their current image. But you certainly should... and you should take full advantage of the knowledge they give you about their current play style. Not to do so is very -EV.

I think we just have differing opinions both strategies make money. I used to be in the exploitative camp as well albeit with a higher win rate live and a losing win rate online. I decided I wanted to get better as a player started reading a ton joined a training site etc. My strategy has moved from exploitative now to probably an overly balanced strategy. I think the real sweet spot is finding somewhere in between the two. Also game theory is exploitably just much less so than an exploitative style. And I do make exploitative reads upon villains but it is just a much smaller percentage of my thought process. I do infer based off the limited info that I have but only when decisions are close. For example in this hand the opener decided to open over the limps he has been opening over limps frequently so his range is a lot weaker than one of the players that limps 90% of the hands he plays so in game I thought this was a factor that lead me to believe that a 3! would be an ok play given position initiative and a hand that plays pretty decent postflop. I realize I am probably over thinking the average 1/2 game by leaps and bounds but I am only playing this to build a roll and move up.

Agreed. What was hero's plan to V 4bet shove? Calling off with A5hh? Certainly value in isolating with some weaker hands in our range but villain stack size poses a problem.

This is really just an off table problem that you have to solve just find out your pot odds and how much equity you need to breakeven. In this spot hero is calling 100 to win roughly 290 so he needs 34.5% equity hand vs Villains range. I am not at my computer right now to do a hand vs range analysis on equalab but I think there is no way we have 35% equity vs a range of hands like TT+ AQo+ AJs+. So this would be a fold given villain jams all in.
 
I dont understand how balanced strategy and sample size are in any way correlated.

Because if someone has only played with you for such a short time that you don't even have basic reads, then you don't need, or even want, a balanced strategy.
 

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