MTT Preflop Play: KK in the SB (1 Viewer)

[Moxie Mike]

Scene: Build-a-stack tournament in a local charity room ($20 for 20k chips up to $50 for 50k chips). One rebuy allowed and an add-on at the break of $10 for 10k chips, $20 for 20k chips or $30 for 30k chips. 56 entries.

Level 6: 600/1200 no ante. Rebuy period is over. 20 minute levels. We're about 2 hours in at this point.

EDITED TO ADD: Tournament structure goes from 600/1200 to 800/1600 to 100/2000 to 2000/4000. So in other words, the blinds are going to more than triple in less than an hour.

Hero is in the 1 seat and posts the SB with a stack of 120k.
BB has similar stack as Hero. I've played in this charity numerous times and never encountered this person before. To this point, the only read is that he is not a formidable opponent - limps often, min-raises multiple limpers preflop, has shown down some marginal holdings, etc.
UTG: Very tight passive. Has limped a few pots but hasn't shown anything down. Hasn't opened a single hand to this point. Stack ~60k.
MP2: stack: 12,700. No relevant reads other than that I've seen her in the room often, and never seen her make a deep run in a tournament.

Action:

UTG opens to 6k. This (a 5x BB raise) is not consistent with table norms to this point in the game. Her body language suggests she is very calm and confident. I suspect she has a very big hand.
Folds to MP, who shoves for 12,700.
Folds to Hero in the SB. He looks down at .

Hero's action?

 

[BGinGA]

Jam.

 

[jemfernandez]

Shove

 

[LotsOfChips]

I'm no expert, but...

UTG can hurt but won't kill you, and may very well fold to your push. MP will barely scratch you, and conceivably went in with a medium pair or two face cards, given the size of her stack. Push!

 

[Moxie Mike]

I should add that the tournament structure goes from 600/1200 to 800/1600 to 100/2000 to 2000/4000. So in other words, the blinds are going to more than triple in less than an hour.

Jam.

Shove

I'm no expert, but...

UTG can hurt but won't kill you, and may very well fold to your push. MP will barely scratch you, and conceivably went in with a medium pair or two face cards, given the size of her stack. Push!

So we're in the 'if she has aces so-be-it it's only half my stack' mindset?

 

[LotsOfChips]

So we're in the 'if she has aces so-be-it it's only half my stack' mindset?

Again, I'm far from an expert, but aggression doesn't seem entirely unreasonable here to me. If you think that she only would lead out w/ AA, then sure, fold, or even call and see if you get to the flop for 12700 (giving her pretty good odds to call though, and then you have some hard decisions if an A flops) But if you think her range may include AK, A-face suited, QQ, JJ, or anything else, then getting your money in seems like a reasonable option, especially if it doesn't end your life if you are wrong. If she has been seeing garbage for 2 straight hours, maybe she thinks something less than AA is a fantastic hand, until you put her tournament life on the line.

But maybe that is why I have busted out of the last few tourneys...

 

[CraigT78]

If the break is within the next five minutes, I tank pre-flop.

 

[jemfernandez]

I think both calling and going all-in are ok plays, with the exception of folding.

If we call and UTG rejams, I think we're mostly calling off unless you get some sick read - but even then, UTG could feel pretty confident holding AA as well as AK, QQ, JJ, KK, (though we block AK and KK hands.) So I don't like going off live reads and making some exploitative folds, especially if we're not at risk of busting the tournament on the bubble.

 

[FiveThous]

Time to use that big stack, shove here and put the original raiser to the test.

 

[WedgeRock]

I don't like flatting because if UTG flats behind, your paying the hand out of position.

If you limp and UTG raises/jams, what do you do? If you fold, then don't call here, just fold. And if you're calling off her all in, then jam first and put her to the decision. If UTG is faced with a jam and re-jam, she's only calling with the top of her range. She may fold strong but vulnerable hands like JJ.

 

[asian bino]

raise to 28k

 

[jemfernandez]

We're never folding here. If we flat and UTG flats there would be about 38k+ in the pot with UTG having about 47k+ behind. We're really committed to this pot unless the flop has an A and UTG jams, then maybe we get away from this, but even then I would be inclined to call.

If we flat and UTG jams we're still calling off. With stack sizes being what they are, I'm certainly calling off 40bb with KK.

 

[aaronroch]

I think you should stare at the phone in your lap and then make a perfect live read on both opponents.

Failing that, it sounds like a jam sandwich to me but I’m even less expert than Mr. Zombie.

 

[detroitdad]

I hate tourneys and I suck at them. I'm either raising to 35k or shoving.

 

[FiveThous]

I hate tourneys and I suck at them. I'm either raising to 35k or shoving.

If you raise to 35k, are you prepared to call a shove?

 

[detroitdad]

If you raise to 35k, are you prepared to call a shove?

Yes. So, I should probably shove then huh. Again, tourney's are stupid lol. Especially NLHE tourney's.

 

[FiveThous]

Yes. So, I should probably shove then huh. Again, tourney's are stupid lol. Especially NLHE tourney's.

Eliminate the middle man

 

[Highli99]

I know what @longflop would do

 

[longflop]

I know what @longflop would do

In hindsight I would have lost, so that was a sma…. No, still stupid. Always shove, especially if you've got her covered.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Yes. So, I should probably shove then huh.

Any raise from me is a commitment to call for her entire stack. So there's no merit to a standard size raise there.

Folding really isn't a viable option - so it's really a decision between cold calling or setting her in.

The case for setting her in is obvious - there's only one hand we fear and we're crushing the rest of her calling range.

The case for cold calling is that MP's shove was a full raise, meaning that UTG will have the option to reraise. If she does, that doesn't necessarily mean aces, but it's more likely that she has aces than Jacks or 10s. And if she cold calls the 6700, then she's less likely to have aces theoretically and I can play the flop with this additional information.

I'll post the first spoiler in a couple hours.

 

[DrStrange]

If Hero really, really believes his read on UTG then fold. I have played with villains who only raise aces, this villain could be the same.

But I don't think hero can have such a solid read given the short table time and few hands. Two hours / fifty hands isn't close to enough to reach such stark conclusions. Fifty hands is plausibly nothing more than a bad stretch of cards.

I fall into the jam camp. UTG will call. Hero will take his chances.

Jam > fold > call -=- DrStrange

 

[Moxie Mike]

Spoiler: First Spoiler (with a twist)

I strongly suspect UTG has aces here. I contemplated all the options and elected to flat call, knowing the legal raise from MP would allow UTG to reopen the action if she elects to do so. I pretty much plan to fold to her 4-bet shove if it comes.

I counted out 12,700 chips, then placed them in the front of me and retrieved my original blind in the same motion. Before I could even add the 600 chips back into my stack, the BB shoves all in for a stack similar to mine - much to my surprise.

UTG beats him into the pot by firmly planting the rest of her stack into the pot with one hand.

I didn't ask for a count of the BB's stack, but I could tell by looking that if he didn't have me covered it was close enough. Action is back on me.

Any thoughts?

Spoiler: Second Spoiler

It should be pretty obvious that I folded without a lot of deliberation. As I was thinking about it, I looked in the direction of the BB and UTG and asked 'which one of you has the aces? Or do both of you have them?' UTG said something unintelligible (the room was loud) and UTG just kind of smirked. The dealer then warned me not to talk with a live hand - which I objected to since I was the only person with a decision to make.

I was convinced one of them surely has aces. Best case scenario is that it's UTG in which case I'll probably stack the BB but lose to her, making calling a break-even proposition more or less.

Spoiler: The results

BB turns over AJo
UTG turns over AA
MP turns over 88

The board ran out clean for AA until an 8 on the river completed a queen-high straight for AJ, and the BB scored a double knockout and won a sizeable pot in the process.

To those who suggest I just conceal and consult my phone - I didn't have it with me for this hand... it was on the charger. But I did have a magic 8-ball handy - which told me all signs point to pocket aces

 

[Gobbs]

Have not read spoilers yet. I say raise to 45-50k and be prepared to be all-in.

EDIT: Read first spoiler. All-in.

SECOND EDIT: Read rest of spoilers. Good decision!! However, the dealer was right to reprimand you.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Spoiler: My Take

I strongly suspect UTG has aces here. I contemplated all the options and elected to flat call, knowing the legal raise from MP would allow UTG to reopen the action if she elects to do so. I pretty much plan to fold to her 4-bet shove if it comes.

I counted out 12,700 chips, then placed them in the front of me and retrieved my original blind in the same motion. Before I could even add the 600 chips back into my stack, the BB shoves all in for a stack similar to mine - much to my surprise.

UTG beats him into the pot by firmly planting the rest of her stack into the pot with one hand.

I didn't ask for a count of the BB's stack, but I could tell by looking that if he didn't have me covered it was close enough. Action is back on me.

I've only read up to here so far. I'm folding at this point.

BB has played loosely, but shoving for a big stack in a spot like this isn't typical loosey-goosey play. He probably has something very big here; if it were only him in the pot, I'd be inclined to call because he tends on the actiony side.

But UTG, who hasn't shown an iota of aggression the whole game, open raises and then gets all-in to a big shove. Aces are in BB's range, and I'd say they make up a significant range of a very tight-passive player who opens UTG for a big raise and then 4-bet shoves. She's looking like AA, KK, and nothing else, and that makes her a 6:1 favorite to have AA because we know Hero has two kings.

Gonna read the next one now.

Aaaaaaaaand good fold. Not everyone has the discipline to make a laydown like this, but KK versus AA doesn't always have to be a cooler. Some players tip their hands too readily with AA, probably because they feel invincible, and having two players making big moves is usually what it takes to get away from KK.

 

[Frogzilla]

Your post didn’t mention but I assume we are still a good bit off the bubble, so ICM considerations are fairly small.

The only real plays in this spot with any hand is to 4-bet jam or fold. Flatting a 3-bet without closing the action is never recommended. Against decent players who bluff sometimes, you are getting 50 bb in pre and the UTG 5x is fairly strong, so a good squeeze range would be QQ, KK, AA, AKs, AQs? I also would make some adjustments based off the UTG tight passive reads, but only squeezing AA for 50 bb is a massive overadjustment. Win that tourney and jam those cowboys

 

[Moxie Mike]

Spoiler: My Take

I've only read up to here so far. I'm folding at this point.

BB has played loosely, but shoving for a big stack in a spot like this isn't typical loosey-goosey play. He probably has something very big here; if it were only him in the pot, I'd be inclined to call because he tends on the actiony side.

But UTG, who hasn't shown an iota of aggression the whole game, open raises and then gets all-in to a big shove. Aces are in BB's range, and I'd say they make up a significant range of a very tight-passive player who opens UTG for a big raise and then 4-bet shoves. She's looking like AA, KK, and nothing else, and that makes her a 6:1 favorite to have AA because we know Hero has two kings.

Gonna read the next one now.

Aaaaaaaaand good fold. Not everyone has the discipline to make a laydown like this, but KK versus AA doesn't always have to be a cooler. Some players tip their hands too readily with AA, probably because they feel invincible, and having two players making big moves is usually what it takes to get away from KK.

Thanks man. The BB's shove was completely unexpected and simplified the decision. I posted this not necessarily looking for guidance but because I thought it was an interesting case study in preflop hand reading, which can be very difficult. In this case, a minimal investment earned enough information to avoid catastrophe.

As it would turn out, I went card dead after that and eventually became shortstacked for the rest of the night but managed to grind out a 4th place (ITM) finish.

I hope people found the discussion worthwhile.