Tourney League champ final table advice (1 Viewer)

[pippen33]

Hello Hello,

We have a poker league where we play 11 regular season tourneys (anywhere between 12-17 players each one) with the top 9 players in point totals advancing to the championship table.

We had the season 1 championship in July and season 2 just kicked off with tourney #1 Saturday night.

Season 1 went better than expected and everyone loved it. One thing I want to tweak is the championship table and it's starting stacks. For season 1 your regular season points total became your final table starting stack (in thousands). The points leader had 680 points and started with 680,000.

The full final table was:

2K - 4K starting blinds

Starting Stack BBs (rounded)

1st 680,000 170 bb
2nd 596,000 149 bb
3rd 539,000 135 bb
4th 478,000 120 bb
5th 449,000 112 bb
6th 432,000 108 bb
7th 429,000 107 bb
8th 406,000 102 bb
9th 399,000 100 bb

With the blinds starting at 2-4K the "shortest stack" had 100 big blinds.

For season 2 I want to have pre-determined stacks for each position 1 thru 9.

(we do 30 min levels for the final table and have a professional dealer so it runs very smoothly and we get in more hands than the traditional "pass the deal"....which is what we do for the regular season tourneys)

Maybe something like:

1st - 170 bb
2nd - 150 bb
3rd - 120 bb
4th - 100 bb
5th - 90 bb
6th - 80 bb
7th - 70 bb
8th - 60 bb
9th - 50 bb

Is there a better way for determining starting stacks for a tourney league championship?

As I said, season 2 just started so I have some time but want to have a concrete FT format in the next few weeks so it can be communicated to the players.

Any help would be appreciated....I know this is the best place to get it!

 

[v1pe]

I'm interested to hear what folks have to say.

I am in the midst of season 1 for my league and I am going to do something similar.

My plan is roughly as follows...note that my intent for our championship game is to have a longer much deeper game than normal (league games are T10K with 25/50 starting blinds and 20 min levels).

Anyone who has 4+ games is eligible to play in the championship game, with schedule preference given to the top 5 players. I will take the point average for everyone eligible to play in the championship game and set that point average equal to the starting stack.

In this example, point average is 129 and I've set the average starting stack as 50K. Starting stack is based on the following formula:

STACK = (POINTS / AVG POINTS) * 50000 (then rounded the nearest 100 for 100/100 starting blinds.

In this example (my current league standings), first place will start with 98800 and last place would start with 10700. I haven't settled on the exact numbers yet, but I hope that approach makes sense.

Place	Points	Games	Starting Stack
1​	254.55​	7​	98800​
2​	239.11​	7​	92800​
3​	185.64​	5​	72100​
4​	182.21​	6​	70700​
5​	172.79​	4​	67100​
6​	169.87​	6​	65900​
7​	152.57​	5​	59200​
8​	148.34​	5​	57600​
9​	127.94​	4​	49700​
10​	122.81​	3​	47700​
11​	120.21​	5​	46700​
12​	106.18​	2​	41200​
13​	101.82​	6​	39500​
14​	101.45​	5​	39400​
15​	82.84​	5​	32200​
16​	70.09​	3​	27200​
17​	48.38​	3​	18800​
19​	33.02​	2​	12800​
20​	27.56​	2​	10700​
19​	129​

 

[timinater]

I'd leave it as is rather than assigning arbitrary stacks based off a numerical rank. In Season 1 409 points was worth 102bb and 399 points was worth 100. Now they would be worth 60 and 50bb respectively.

I think it's probably more confusing to explain, and like I said, arbitrary. I like the simplicity of saying your league performance = your final table stack. In my opinion you'd be taking a step back if you changed to your proposed format.

In my league - for my planning purposes we say the average stack at the final table will be 20K, and the stacks usually range from about 10k to 30k to start out depending on how the points shake out.

From my league rules:

Points
Points that go towards final table chip stacks are awarded based on the number of players, and your finish. Points are awarded equal to your finish position with exceptions for those that cash, and the first three eliminated. Ex: 4th player eliminated receives 4 points, 5th player eliminated receives 5, etc. The players that finish in the money receive a “cash bonus”:

• 10 or less players 1st, 2nd and 3rd receive "Cash Bonus" of 6, 4 and 2 points
• 11 or more players 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th receive "Cash Bonus" of 8, 6, 4 and 2 points
• Example:
  • 1st -10 + 6 = 16 2nd - 9 + 4 = 13 3rd - 8 + 2 = 10 4th - 7 5th - 6 6th - 5 7th - 4 8th - 3 9th - 3 10th - 3

Final Table
The Final Table will take place at a predetermined time. At the Host’s discretion the Final Table may be rescheduled, or the next season start before the Final Table for the previous season is played.

• Must play in a minimum of three preliminary games to qualify for final table.
• Chips are distributed based on points earned for preliminary game finishes.
• Average chip stack will be 20,000. Ex: If the average point total is 50, the point multiplier would be established at 1 point = 400 chips. If you finished the season with 37 points, you would receive 14,800 chips to start the final table. The multiplier will be finalized at the end of the eight preliminary tournaments.
• There is no maximum number of players who can qualify for the final

More info on how I run my league: https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/sunday-night-poker-season-17.35689/#post-655417

 

[BGinGA]

I'd leave it as is rather than assigning arbitrary stacks based off a numerical rank.

I like the simplicity of saying your league performance = your final table stack. In my opinion you'd be taking a step back if you changed to your proposed format.

^^This.

 

[Mojo1312]

What is the goal? To reduce the number of BB's to shorten the championship tournament? To give a greater share to those at the top? Or to simplify your current system?

I don't think it would be healthy for your league to have a such top heavy reward structure where the top finisher has a stack that is 3.4 greater than the 9th place finisher.

If the former

You can reduce the stacks proportionally.

1st - 140 bb
2nd - 120 bb
3rd - 110 bb
4th - 100 bb
5th - 90 bb
6th - 90 bb
7th - 90 bb
8th - 80 bb
9th - 80 bb

Total number of BB's: 900 versus approximately 1100.

To allot a greater share at the top:

1st - 180 bb
2nd - 150 bb
3rd - 125 bb
4th - 105 bb
5th - 90 bb
6th - 90 bb
7th - 80 bb
8th - 75 bb
9th - 75 bb

Total number of BB's: 980 versus approximately 1100. The top four roughly have an extra 5% of the chip total at the start of the game.
The league champion has 2.4x the chip-stack of the 8th and 9th place finishers.

 

[pippen33]

What is the goal? To reduce the number of BB's to shorten the championship tournament? To give a greater share to those at the top? Or to simplify your current system?

I don't think it would be healthy for your league to have a such top heavy reward structure where the top finisher has a stack that is 3.4 greater than the 9th place finisher.

If the former

You can reduce the stacks proportionally.

1st - 140 bb
2nd - 120 bb
3rd - 110 bb
4th - 100 bb
5th - 90 bb
6th - 90 bb
7th - 90 bb
8th - 80 bb
9th - 80 bb

Total number of BB's: 900 versus approximately 1100.

To allot a greater share at the top:

1st - 180 bb
2nd - 150 bb
3rd - 125 bb
4th - 105 bb
5th - 90 bb
6th - 90 bb
7th - 80 bb
8th - 75 bb
9th - 75 bb

Total number of BB's: 980 versus approximately 1100. The top four roughly have an extra 5% of the chip total at the start of the game.
The league champion has 2.4x the chip-stack of the 8th and 9th place finishers.

The goal is definitely not to shorten it but if that's the byproduct of a better distribution (if that exists), I'm not opposed to it. There certainly wasn't anything wrong with last season's final but the thought of 9th having 100bbs is something I was looking at and questioning if there's a better way.

We have 30min levels and an appropriate slower progressing structure so the table will have plenty of play. I was just wondering how a "traditional" final table would look where everyone comes in with a wide chip distribution.

As an example, the WSOP Main Event had a FT distribution of:

177 BB
99 BB
61 BB
43 BB
38 BB
33 BB
23 BB
20 BB
20 BB

I certainly don't want 20bb stacks but was wondering if a formula exists for something with 9th starting with maybe 60 bigs and going from there.

 

[BGinGA]

Our 8-player championship game runs about 9 hours, and has stacks based on season performance -- typically 8th starts with around 100bb, with the big stack generally in the 300bb-400bb range. In 15 seasons, the big stack has won it exactly once, as has the small stack. Most wins come from position #4, #3, or #5.

I think 50-60bb is way too short for a finals-type event.

 

[pippen33]

Our 8-player championship game runs about 9 hours, and has stacks based on season performance -- typically 8th starts with around 100bb, with the big stack generally in the 300bb-400bb range. In 15 seasons, the big stack has won it exactly once, as has the small stack. Most wins come from position #4, #3, or #5.

I think 50-60bb is way too short for a finals-type event.

I agree that starting with 50-60bb would be too short but also want them to be at more of a disadvantage as compared to the largest stack.

What you have is basically what I was thinking though. The top stack coming in has 3-4x the "small" stack. As you have, the answer isn't making the small stack less....it's making the bigger stacks bigger. We can either keep it as is from season 1 or make something along the lines of "small stack starts with 100bb, big stack starts with 300bb" and fill in the middle 7 stacks from there.

How do you determine your 8 player stacks?

 

[bsdunbar1]

FWIW I also agree with NOT assigning starting stacks to finishing positions. We have done it both ways and the starting stack based on performance is way better. We implemented the points leader at the end of the season getting 10% of the raked freeroll money for finishing 1st in points for the season. Our season end freeroll is ~$2500-3000.
When we assigned starting stacks to positions it gave no incentive in the final few weeks if you could not change your position. Now we base freeroll starting stacks off Points + kills + wins, so even if you have a huge points lead you have incentive to increase your starting stack for the freeroll. Much Better.

We also implemented a "play in game" where positions 8-15 play 1 game for the final 8th spot in the freeroll. Their starting stacks are also based on performance. So positions 1-15 all have something to play for every single week of the season. (Our seasons are weekly & 15-20 weeks in length)

I will also add that we start our weekly league games with 10k starting stacks, I set the freeroll starting stack formula so 8th place in the freeroll would generally end up with a bit more than our normal starting stack, like 10-11ish and then each position goes up from there with no limits, strictly what your performance earns you.

 

[BGinGA]

How do you determine your 8 player stacks?

9-game season, with points awarded to top 30% of each field (1st usually in the 10-12 point range based on field size). Wins, collected bounties, re-buys, and appearances are tracked, but do not affect earned points.

Championship stacks are determined as follows:
baseline 10000 + ((points + wins) × 1000) + ((bounties + events - re-buys) × 500), rounded up to the nearest 500 increment. Stacks typically range from 20k to 60k (100-300bb with 50/100 opening blinds), and the average stack size is usually in the 33k-35k range (roughly 170bb).

So a player with 35 points, 2 wins, 15 bounties, and one re-buy over 8 appearances would start with T58000 chips, or around 290BB. Eighth place is guaranteed at least T15000 chips, but most times has qualified for a stack of T20k (100BB) or larger.

 

[Moxie Mike]

We play a 6-event season culminating in a championship event (CE). Like yours, we use a point system to determine starting stacks. Here are the finer details:

Championship tournament uses the same structure as regular season events but start with more chips. Players start with a stack of 40,000 with 100/200 blinds to start.

A player must have played in 3 of the regular events or won two of them to be CE eligible.

Performance bonuses are awarded as follows. A player will receive an extra:

• T1000 for every player eliminated throughout the season;
• T1000 for every ‘championship event eligible’ player that a player outranks in the final regular season standings;
• T2500 for every top-three regular season finish;
• T2500 for every event a player has won throughout the season;
• T5000 for finishing the regular season ranked #1 in the standings

Typically, 9 or 10 people make it to the CE and there ends up being about 600,000 chips in play, which is consistent with our regular events. Since there's no add-ons or rebuys, play more or less normalizes in terms of avg stack-to-blind ratios after the first 4 rounds or so.

We're in season 3 - in the first two seasons we had a couple people start with stacks in the 5-600 BB range - which might sound a little nutty but when everyone is at least 2-300 BBs deep, it's not so bad and in fact it loosens up play quite a bit.

It's too small of a sample size to extrapolate any meaningful trends, but FWIW the biggest stacks in the two CEs we've had were always amongst the first ones out.

 

[pippen33]

FWIW I also agree with NOT assigning starting stacks to finishing positions. We have done it both ways and the starting stack based on performance is way better. We implemented the points leader at the end of the season getting 10% of the raked freeroll money for finishing 1st in points for the season. Our season end freeroll is ~$2500-3000.
When we assigned starting stacks to positions it gave no incentive in the final few weeks if you could not change your position. Now we base freeroll starting stacks off Points + kills + wins, so even if you have a huge points lead you have incentive to increase your starting stack for the freeroll. Much Better.

We also implemented a "play in game" where positions 8-15 play 1 game for the final 8th spot in the freeroll. Their starting stacks are also based on performance. So positions 1-15 all have something to play for every single week of the season. (Our seasons are weekly & 15-20 weeks in length)

I will also add that we start our weekly league games with 10k starting stacks, I set the freeroll starting stack formula so 8th place in the freeroll would generally end up with a bit more than our normal starting stack, like 10-11ish and then each position goes up from there with no limits, strictly what your performance earns you.

We do the same as far as a regular season champion. He got a $500 payout and we had around $4,150 left for the final 9 championship.

For the final regular season tourney places 1, 2 and 3 all had a chance to win the season points total. Places 8 thru 13 all had a chance to be the 8th/9th player at the final table. 13th needed a win and 9th would need to be one of the first few out but that's fine after an 11 tourney season. Places 4th thru 7 could not win the regular season points total and could also not fall out of the top 9. Again, that's to be expected at the end of 10 tourneys with 1 remaining. Like yours, their incentive was to play for that night's prize pool and increase their final table starting stacks.

 

[pippen33]

It's too small of a sample size to extrapolate any meaningful trends, but FWIW the biggest stacks in the two CEs we've had were always amongst the first ones out.

Yeah the chip leader at our championship finished 6th and the 9th place starter came in 2nd, which is great. We definitely want 6th thru 9th to have an excellent chance at the top.

We don't have KO/bounty bonuses (we don't do $ bounties) and we already have a "+ number of players" bonus for winning so that's built into the season points and doesn't need added on at the end.

So with no KO/kills bonus and the winners bonus already built in, is the best way to just continue S2 as we did S1? Your final table stack directly reflects your season point total

 

[Frogzilla]

One thing I want to tweak is the championship table and it's starting stacks.

Is there a better way for determining starting stacks for a tourney league championship?

What are you trying to tweak - specifically what goal would you like to accomplish? Was is that regular season performance was not a big enough factor in the final game? Your proposed structure will absolutely accomplish that, see below. I think it's got a lot more merit than people are giving. Given that there are only 11 in your league (so 9th place didn't really accomplish much), I think your proposed 1st - 9th start stacks in the original post.

Regular Season Finish	Start Stack (k), point method	Chance to win, point method	Start Stack (k), finish pos. method	Chance to win, finish pos. method
1	680	15.4%	680	19.1%
2	596	13.5%	600	16.9%
3	539	12.2%	480	13.5%
4	478	10.8%	400	11.2%
5	449	10.2%	360	10.1%
6	432	9.8%	320	9.0%
7	429	9.7%	280	7.9%
8	406	9.2%	240	6.7%
9	399	9.1%	200	5.6%

 

[pippen33]

What are you trying to tweak - specifically what goal would you like to accomplish? Was is that regular season performance was not a big enough factor in the final game? Your proposed structure will absolutely accomplish that, see below. I think it's got a lot more merit than people are giving. Given that there are only 11 in your league (so 9th place didn't really accomplish much), I think your proposed 1st - 9th start stacks in the original post.

Regular Season Finish	Start Stack (k), point method	Chance to win, point method	Start Stack (k), finish pos. method	Chance to win, finish pos. method
1	680	15.4%	680	19.1%
2	596	13.5%	600	16.9%
3	539	12.2%	480	13.5%
4	478	10.8%	400	11.2%
5	449	10.2%	360	10.1%
6	432	9.8%	320	9.0%
7	429	9.7%	280	7.9%
8	406	9.2%	240	6.7%
9	399	9.1%	200	5.6%

you say "only 11". Are you thinking players? We have a group of 17 or 18 in the player pool. There's never any less than 12 or 13 at a particular tourney and we've never had all 18....but have 17 on numerous occasions. The 11 was in reference to 11 tourneys where players gather points.

 

[Frogzilla]

you say "only 11". Are you thinking players? We have a group of 17 or 18 in the player pool. There's never any less than 12 or 13 at a particular tourney and we've never had all 18....but have 17 on numerous occasions. The 11 was in reference to 11 tourneys where players gather points.

Yes I did read it as 11 players. Gotcha.

 

[AnteAndy]

I agree that starting with 50-60bb would be too short but also want them to be at more of a disadvantage as compared to the largest stack.

What you have is basically what I was thinking though. The top stack coming in has 3-4x the "small" stack. As you have, the answer isn't making the small stack less....it's making the bigger stacks bigger. We can either keep it as is from season 1 or make something along the lines of "small stack starts with 100bb, big stack starts with 300bb" and fill in the middle 7 stacks from there.

How do you determine your 8 player stacks?

What we're doing in our league currently for this season is that Championship game has the top 8 point earners, where the top 5 of them receive freeroll entry, and additional starting chips. We have T1000 in starting chips, so from 5th to 1st goes up in additional chips by 200 increments, such as 5th=200 addnl chips, 4th=400 chips, to 1st=1,000 addnl chips. the bottom three get to qualify but have to buy in and start with the regular starting chip stack amounts, and blind levels are still the same.