Le Shuffler? (3 Viewers)

Omar65

Omar65

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https://www.facebook.com/share/v/4QjuNkyZ5zdicqNz/?mibextid=UalRPS

Anyone heard of these guys? A friend of mine brought it to my attention yesterday. Couldn’t find any mention of it here yet, so just asking. They are trying to use Kickstarter to launch later this year. $25 to “hold your spot” and also gives you $200 off the regular price of $800.
Claiming they outperform ShuffleTech in several areas. Check the comments for some more insights.
Also claim it will “deal”. Spits cards out about 2 inches so not sure how helpful that is to a home game.
Anyway, could be a new entrant into the space pretty much owned by ShuffleTech now. Thought I’d ask the experts here what yall think.
 
I do notice that the video has no sound...........but they claim it's around 70 dB now and the actual production models will be less as "better materials" will be used. Big claim is also better randomization of the deck vs the ST-1000. They offer no data to support that however.
 
Hi, Francois here, founder of LeShuffler.
Happy to answer any question and take any feedback. :-)

Omar65 said:
I do notice that the video has no sound...........but they claim it's around 70 dB now and the actual production models will be less as "better materials" will be used. Big claim is also better randomization of the deck vs the ST-1000. They offer no data to support that however.
Click to expand...
Hi Omar, Francois here, founder of LeShuffler,
In fact LeShuffler uses a True Random Number Generator, this guarantees mathematical randomness.
The ST1000 relies on physically mixing the cards so cannot provide the same guarantee.
Hope this helps, any question let me know.
 
francoisLS said:
Hi, Francois here, founder of LeShuffler.
Happy to answer any question and take any feedback. :-)


Hi Omar, Francois here, founder of LeShuffler,
In fact LeShuffler uses a True Random Number Generator, this guarantees mathematical randomness.
The ST1000 relies on physically mixing the cards so cannot provide the same guarantee.
Hope this helps, any question let me know.
Click to expand...
Can you explain this? Are you saying the shuffler randomly assigns an order and then intentionally pulls and stacks those cards in that order?
 
francoisLS said:
In fact LeShuffler uses a True Random Number Generator, this guarantees mathematical randomness.
Click to expand...
I'm curious what you're using for your source of entropy/randomness here to create true random numbers rather than pseudorandom?

Not that pseudorandom numbers generated by computer wouldn't necessarily be more random than the shuffletech's physical shuffles, but when you make a claim like True Random Number Generator it makes my tech nerd software engineer ears perk up.
 
buzzmonkey said:
Can you explain this? Are you saying the shuffler randomly assigns an order and then intentionally pulls and stacks those cards in that order?
Click to expand...
Exactly right, cards are put in a carousel, then random numbers are generated and the cards are pulled from the carousel in that order. And voilà. :)

demonnic said:
I'm curious what you're using for your source of entropy/randomness here to create true random numbers rather than pseudorandom?

Not that pseudorandom numbers generated by computer wouldn't necessarily be more random than the shuffletech's physical shuffles, but when you make a claim like True Random Number Generator it makes my tech nerd software engineer ears perk up.
Click to expand...
My fellow nerd,
As John Von Neumann famously said, “Anyone who attempts to generate random numbers by deterministic means is, of course, living in a state of sin.”
To avoid that we use hardware-based entropy... the jitter of ring oscillators if you have to know ;)
 
francoisLS said:
cards are put in a carousel, then random numbers are generated and the cards are pulled from the carousel in that order.
Click to expand...
Sorry if my tiny brain isn't grasping that statement completely.

Does that mean that the cards are never actually shuffled into a full deck, but rather are dispensed in a random manner one card at a time? In other words, can the machine dispense a completely shuffled deck, or does one have to rely on the machine to dispense the individual cards based on the selected game?
 
LotsOfChips said:
Sorry if my tiny brain isn't grasping that statement completely.

Does that mean that the cards are never actually shuffled into a full deck, but rather are dispensed in a random manner one card at a time? In other words, can the machine dispense a completely shuffled deck, or does one have to rely on the machine to dispense the individual cards based on the selected game?
Click to expand...
I suspect the device determines a random order, then pulls and scans each card and then stacks them in the determined order.
 
buzzmonkey said:
I suspect the device determines a random order, then pulls and scans each card and then stacks them in the determined order.
Click to expand...

I think it takes the cards, whatever order they happen to be in, and puts some number of them in bins in a carousel. Then the RND determines which bin in the carousel it pulls a card from, it doesn’t know what the card is only that it’s in bin 6 for example. It keeps pulling cards from random bins based on the RND, but it’s doesn’t actually know what the cards ever are. At least the basic version they are shooting for.

I could be wrong, but I think that’s what he’s saying.
 
ekricket said:
I think it takes the cards, whatever order they happen to be in, and puts some number of them in bins in a carousel. Then the RND determines which bin in the carousel it pulls a card from, it doesn’t know what the card is only that it’s in bin 6 for example. It keeps pulling cards from random bins based on the RND, but it’s doesn’t actually know what the cards ever are. At least the basic version they are shooting for.

I could be wrong, but I think that’s what he’s saying.
Click to expand...
That is exactly it, LeShuffler puts all the cards in the carousel, one card per bin as they come. LeShuffler has no card recognition device so doesn't know what the cards are (a limitation but some find it reassuring).
To decide what card to pull next, a bin is selected at random and this is repeated until either you have the number of cards you need (if you are using the machine to deal) or the carousel is empty (if you are shuffling the full deck).
And @LotsOfChips statement is also correct, cards are never physically shuffled inside the machine.
LeShuffler works like a continuous card shuffler, similar to the one2six or Shuffle King.

(To be noted, cards can also be loaded in the carousel not as they come but in random order, so random in-random out, if you are using a brand new sorted deck for instance and want extra safety)
 
@francoisLS what people need most is a credible and reliable machine (better that Chinese cheap ones) to just shuffle the cards; NOT deal them to players.

And, since all machines up to now, from the cheapest to the most expensive ones, are BIG in size, people have made a mistake if they haven't installed one on their table surface, with all the size going underneath the table.

I guess you 're not a wizard, but could you produce an elementary machine, just shuffling, and be small, flat (low) enough for being on the table?
 
Coyote said:
@francoisLS what people need most is a credible and reliable machine (better that Chinese cheap ones) to just shuffle the cards; NOT deal them to players.

And, since all machines up to now, from the cheapest to the most expensive ones, are BIG in size, people have made a mistake if they haven't installed one on their table surface, with all the size going underneath the table.

I guess you 're not a wizard, but could you produce an elementary machine, just shuffling, and be small, flat (low) enough for being on the table?
Click to expand...
Thanks @Coyote
Food for thought.
How low is "low enough" in cm or inches?
 
As far as I’m concerned the market consists of three different segments that are all unattractive in their own way. And inbetween them, nothing at all:

-Cheap noisy crap - $50-100
-A whole lot of nothing
-Shuffle tech - $600-700
A whole lot of nothing
-deckmate - $4500+

I have zero knowledge of how difficult and costly building these things are and maybe the gaps exist for a reason. I’m not interested in the cheap absolute crap but don’t see shuffling as a big enough chore to spend as much as $600, let alone several thousand. A new product would have to be $200-300 or be a clear improvment of the Shuffletech to raise my interest.

Also, I suspect most on here and similar target groups would find the function for dealing cards pretty gimmicky and useless.
 
Hi @Eriks, thanks for the insight - I actually share your view of the market. ;)

I discovered that the difficult part in making a card shuffler is getting the proper level of tolerances (in terms of dimension).
This is the main factor explaining the cost, the dealing function not so much in fact.
I have been thinking of making a pared-down version of LeShuffler that would shuffle only, I will certainly look into once this current version is launched.
Because of the need for precision, I am not sure how much lower we can get cost-wise, and specifically if we can reach the kind of level you are mentioning, but i think it is definitely worth exploring.
 
I think there may be more of a market in this forum for a LeShuffler Basique. It doesn't need to deal, it doesn't need to be as big, top loading would be preferred but front loading would work too if it keeps the cost down. And I think this forum will be a great source of feedback and information if you decide to go that route down the road.
 
francoisLS said:
Hi @Eriks, thanks for the insight - I actually share your view of the market. ;)

I discovered that the difficult part in making a card shuffler is getting the proper level of tolerances (in terms of dimension).
This is the main factor explaining the cost, the dealing function not so much in fact.
I have been thinking of making a pared-down version of LeShuffler that would shuffle only, I will certainly look into once this current version is launched.
Because of the need for precision, I am not sure how much lower we can get cost-wise, and specifically if we can reach the kind of level you are mentioning, but i think it is definitely worth exploring.
Click to expand...

Could you reduce the number of bins to like 7 and then it puts random #cards in each bin and then pulls at random from the bins to build a deck?
 
ekricket said:
Could you reduce the number of bins to like 7 and then it puts random #cards in each bin and then pulls at random from the bins to build a deck?
Click to expand...
You definitely can, but you reduce randomness by doing so.
I am a bit taken by the Kickstarter campaign at the moment, but willing to elaborate at a later stage.
 
buzzmonkey said:
I think there may be more of a market in this forum for a LeShuffler Basique. It doesn't need to deal, it doesn't need to be as big, top loading would be preferred but front loading would work too if it keeps the cost down. And I think this forum will be a great source of feedback and information if you decide to go that route down the road.
Click to expand...
Hi @buzzmonkey, I take good note of "LeShuffler Basique" ;-)
I will definitely keep the forum in the loop when working on it, this is clearly the ideal place to get feedback.
There is something to be said in defence of the dealing feature though.
I agree that it fits naturally with "social" card games, and many poker players I know told me it's not for them, they would not consider it etc... But continuous shufflers can provide super-fast turnaround between games, especially when just a few players are sitting.
Who knows? In a heads-up contest, you might find yourself tempted by LeShuffler Original's dealing feature?
À suivre...
 
francoisLS said:
In a heads-up contest, you might find yourself tempted by LeShuffler Original's dealing feature?
Click to expand...
Possibly, but I don’t think there’s that much heads-up/very short handed play happening. I assume it will spit out the flop+turn+river as well?
 
Btw, I hope I don’t come off too negative, I’m just trying to give honest feedback based on the potential use I see for my own games. I certainly think any venture like this is cool and I applaude the effort.
 
Eriks said:
Btw, I hope I don’t come off too negative, I’m just trying to give honest feedback based on the potential use I see for my own games. I certainly think any venture like this is cool and I applaude the effort.
Click to expand...
@Eriks, on the contrary, your comments are actually extremely helpful an truly appreciated :tup:
Very grateful that you are taking the time.
 

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