KEM - Don't understand the hype. (4 Viewers)

[Tanner Kaza]

Personal opinion here , but I just don't understand the obsession that many people have with KEM cards. In my experience the 4 or 5 setups i've ever owned have been super thin, flimsy and have started to warp much faster than other brands like Copag, Modiano, NTP(My favorite), Prestige Bicycle...etc.

I am not sure that if it's just the "prestige" or "tradition" that KEM represents, but to me personally there are just significantly better options that can be used, and usually with a smaller price tag.

I know there are several people that just love them but me personally, I never thought they lived up to the hype. No offense to those of you that enjoy them, to each his own!

 

[links_slayer]

i don't like my USPC KEM cards

i love my pre-USPC KEM cards

like you said, to each his own. it would be boring if we all like the same things.

 

[TheBigTater]

Back in the day before Modiano, Fournier, Copag, etc.... KEM was the only game in town. Yes there were others Dale, Tower, & a few others but compared to KEM's they were doodoo. We only had paper cards & KEMs. Since then Plastic cards have grown leaps and bound and IMO KEM's have taken a step backwards with their acquisition by USPC. They don't hold any big draw for me anymore.

 

[upNdown]

I’ve only handled one setup of KEMs - I’ve stayed away from them because I believe what everybody here says about the bowing issue. That, compared with the high price, steers me toward other options.
But I liked the thinness and flexibility. To me, the thicker cards are, the less I like them.

 

[dew4au]

If you watch this board closely, I think you see that there are many of us who despise KEMs. I personally don't like playing with Pringles.

 

[SWEATER]

Copag half the price for a setup... hard to argue with that.

 

[GIANTDustySquid]

I agree I've had some kems that aren't the same. Must be the pre/post-USPC Thing

But I've still never had a KEM that I've liked Less than copags. Are all copags finished the same and feel the same? Cuz if so, they are my least favourite plastic card by far. I like the desjgns, and am really interested in trying some fourniers, since I've seen quite a few positive reviews on them.
They use bridge size gemaco at the casino near me, and I like them better than any copags I've handled as well. Still put the KEM near the top of my list, even post USPC kems are great IMO, and I haven't had any issues with bowing in any I've owned, although there are a lot of people who complain about that being a problem.

 

[Milo013]

Copags are the WalMart of plastic cards. You get them cheaply enough that you don't really feel too bad about going back a short while later and getting MORE. When USPC bought KEM, they kept the price point, but cheapened the product. As a result, people were buying the reputation that KEM had built over many years and asking themselves, WTF?!? the brand has never recovered, imo. It is why quality manufacturers have gained market share steadily, and why new start-ups like Desjgn have garnered a following . . . VALUE.

But I would highly recommend a set up of pre USPC KEMs to your table. There really is something special about them. and this comes from a die-hard Modiano and Fournier lover.

 

[BGinGA]

Copag half the price for a setup... hard to argue with that.

Plenty easy to argue with that, as Copags aren't much better than KEM cards, imo - they are hard to shuffle, and the print wears off prematurely. Every deck of KEM cards I've owned (or have been owned by friends) has bowed, makes no difference when they were made. Some of the pre-USPC decks are the worst.

Bicycle Prestige -- top-tier performance for half the price of Copags -- now that is something hard to argue with. Not my favorite cards, but a fresh deck is right up there with the best. And you can't beat the price for value.

 

[kk405]

Da Vinci Bridge Jumbo index cards are my current favorite. At $13/set, with a hard plastic cover, both decks individually wrapped (important if you use a fresh set-up every week), and a cut card in each set-up, is hard to argue against. I think the quality is better than the KEM and Copags. I just wish they made several different patterns, as I am getting tired of the just these two:

https://www.amazon.com/Italian-Plas...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=YXM3K2Z3XH43TW2JXVV3

https://www.amazon.com/Vinci-Casino...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=DE8N31MPHYK3527MMF14

 

[Old State]

I have been using plastic cards for 18 years. I started with Kems and then tried Copags as that was the only option many years ago. I have a set up of almost every brand card made and actually just ordered two Kem setups this summer and last week after boycotting them since 2006.

Here are my observations and opinions:

- Kems are hands down the best feeling card on the market. I casino riffle when I shuffle and they shuffle like butter. Desjgns are second in feel.

-Kem cards tend to warp BUT Pre vs post USPC is a myth. The worst warped Kems I ever owned were 2000 vintage pre USPC. I also still own a setup of 2002 vintage Kems that never bowed. I have a set of 2006 USPC Kems that have a slight bow. There is not difference in feel between those decks.

-I bought a Kem set up this summer and have kept them in my finished basement only with dealer buttons between the case lid and the card and they are totally flat. I used them in play for about 14 hours.

-My Dal Negro and Cartamundi Acetates cards also are slightly bowed. The only material that stays dead flat is what Fournier/Bicycle, Guild, DaVinci, etc use.

-I have had Copags with HEAVY use. Non ever bowed but the ink bled while in storage for a while. Those are the only cards I ever threw out.

-My setup of Gemaco Superflex are slightly bowed. My Gemaco Monte Carlos (supposedly the same thing) are not bowed. Gemaco are hands down the stiffest cards and have the ugliest art. It's nasty ugly.

-My favorite art is Desjgn...by a HUGE HUGE margin. Second is a setup of Dal Negro Acetates (that have a bow) with colored faces on the face cards, then Kems.

-Desjgn are my all around favorite card (though I did have a deck the came bowed and was replaced by them. The new decks have stayed totally flat).

-I noticed that the newer Kems have a rougher texture which I like better. I'm hoping my new storage regimen will keep them flat. I'll report back.

-When Desjgn starts making bridge sized standard index decks in red blue and dark primary colors I will only buy them from that point forward.

Here is an old pic of most of my collection which I have sampled from. I have since added three set ups since this photo was taken.

 

[kk405]

View attachment 140487

-My favorite art is Desjgn...by a HUGE HUGE margin.

Couldn't agree more. My first experience ever with them was the recent Kickstarter campaign, and even though we have a major issue with the manufacturer, the design is unique and gorgeous. I wish I could use the cards as everyone in our game loved the first set up we opened, but unfortunately after the second game, we had to stop using them. Now I have 28 un-opened and 2 opened sets that need to be discarded at some point. Very sad indeed

 

[Old State]

2002 Pre USPC Kems that bowed to the point of being unusable

 

[Old State]

2003 Pre USPC Kems that remained totally flat. These were retired many years ago after 100s of hours of play. I loved them and won a lot of money with that setup!

 

[mashoo]

Kem arrows I bought and used regularly for 2 years

Casino OLG kem's I bought, opened plastic and took a picture two days later. Didn't use

The two OLG kem decks side by side

 

[200 Motels]

Copag seem to be prone to crimping from people who side pinch their hole cards. KEM and Gemaco seem pretty resistant to this.

True that COPAG rarely bow but I find KEM that get used regularly don't run into this. Only KEM that have bowed on me were used then stored in questionable environments.

 

[Old State]

True that COPAG rarely bow but I find KEM that get used regularly don't run into this. Only KEM that have bowed on me were used then stored in questionable environments.

Agree. Also ones stored in humid environments. The setup I showed that bowed bad were used down the shore than rarely used after I realized I hated poker sized jumbo and went with bridge sized regular index

 

[CHP TD]

Yep

only had one set up of kems, will never have another.

 

[Old State]

Funny....I watched Rounders for the first time in several years and noticed the Kems at KGBs place are slightly bowed! Man, was this movie authentic!!

Another note...Kems also gained popularity because they were what most of the casinos used and still use. That's actually how I found out about them....I noticed the brand name on the ace of spades and sought them out. That said, I swore the Kems at Borgata were thicker than what I had back in the day and even called Kem to ask. They claimed they had no special card stock for casinos. I never saw a bowed casino Kem until this last summer at Borgata where my table had some very worn decks.

Harrahs was using branded Gemaco Superflex. Many of the cards had ink that chipped off the faces and had a very slight bow to them.

 

[Tanner Kaza]

Great info being shared in this thread. Interesting that there seems to be a good deal of people who think KEM Pre and Post USPC is a big factor, and many others who believe that there was no noticeable change at all.

I have owned several brands in the last 5-10 years and my favorites really vary based on bridge vs poker size cards.

-NTP Dal Negro Poker size
- Modiano Poker Index
- Bicycle Prestige

- Copag Bridge Jumbo Index
- Fournier Bridge Jumbo Index
- Da Vinci Bridge

There aren't too many more known brands I haven't played with except Desjgn,Piatnik, Gemaco(Outside of playing with them at casinos).

 

[Jambine]

i don't like my USPC KEM cards

i love my pre-USPC KEM cards

like you said, to each his own. it would be boring if we all like the same things.

Tragic but true. USPC has done a poor job with a great brand. They seem to have quality issues under control now, but the cards are just not quite the same.

Pre-USPC Rocks! I just found a new set of Kem Casino circle backs. I opened the red deck to make sure of the date

 

[Old State]

I was actually hoping to dispel the pre post USPC MYTH in this thread. I've owned 4 sets of pre and three sets of post. There is ZERO difference in the propensity for warping. Too further illustrate here is another set of pre and post USPC pics.

First some 2003 pre USPC casino circle backs.

Second set are post USPC from 2006 that were played with extensively and have a slight bend...on the margin of playable vs non playable.

 

[Old State]

Here are a set of 2011 followed by 2016 Kems that are dead flat. The '16s have about 8 hours of play but have been stored with dealer buttons on top. Both have remained in my finished basement in stable temperatures and conditions. These newer Kems are rougher in texture and I actually prefer them to the old ones

They are so flat getting a single card off my wooden bar top was difficult.

After owning several samples of both pre and post USPC Kems there is no difference other than cards made at least since 2011 that have a rougher texture ... which I like better.

What I have learned about Kems is this:

-USPC cards are the exact same!!!!!!
-highly used Kems tend to stay flat
-Kems taken to humid areas and back and/or stored in humid environments will warp.
-Kems are the gold standard for feel (IMO)
-Other brands, especially acetate, will developed a bend as well (usually upward). These include DalNegros, Cartamundi, and even Gemaco Superflex. Though I have only seen Kems warp to extreme levels (again in long term humid storage)
-IMO they are not worth $30 but I will buy them NEW when I find a deal. I have found them as low as $23 a setup or $10 for a single deck.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I've played with a deck of Kems, but did not like. Not because of the warping, but because they were harder to shuffle. Both my hands and Mrs Zombies hands were sore from shuffling them over 4-5 hours every time we played at the game that used them.

Eventually, I thought "maybe they're just dirty from smoker's fingers or something", and bought a set-up of my own. They are super-warpy and unusable for a self-dealt game because you wont get it across the table without a card flipping - sometimes doing a complete 360!

It's not that I discredit @Old State 's observations, but I would like to know where do you live? Ooodles of players here have the same warping issue, but I wonder if this is a local humidity thing.

 

[Old State]

I've played with a deck of Kems, but did not like. Not because of the warping, but because they were harder to shuffle. Both my hands and Mrs Zombies hands were sore from shuffling them over 4-5 hours every time we played at the game that used them.

Eventually, I thought "maybe they're just dirty from smoker's fingers or something", and bought a set-up of my own. They are super-warpy and unusable for a self-dealt game because you wont get it across the table without a card flipping - sometimes doing a complete 360!

It's not that I discredit @Old State 's observations, but I would like to know where do you live? Ooodles of players here have the same warping issue, but I wonder if this is a local humidity thing.

Hmm, wouldnt expect anyone to think they were hard to shuffle. In my experience they are by far the softest shuffling cards without even a close second. I would say Cartamundi Acetates and Copags are pretty easy to shuffle. Gemacos are some of the stiffest. Not sure how you shuffle but I use the standard casino "riffle strip riffle riffle cut" like this:

I would imagine part of the popularity of Kems in casinos is because dealers like how they shuffle. I'll ask some dealers next time I'm there. I know Borgata tried Gemacos but was using Kems again as of 2015 or earlier (at least I haven't seen anything but Kems since then)

I live in SE PA so basically the same humidity as Nashville. I do believe the warpage is a humidity thing which may explain why well used Kems tend to stay flat - my theory being that the oil from people hands "seal" the cards of from humidity. Also, there are two type of warping...major warping like in some of the pics I posted or minor bowing which is common with most not PVC made cards.

Also, I understand many people have issues as I have (I assume you read my posts and closely looked at the pics). With Kems there is a definite chance of warping. That said the most recent ones I have purchased seem to be different and better. Time with tell and will definitely post updates. So far 9 months and they are still flat stored in my finished basement with a dealer button on top. I also store they upside down.

 

[Poker Zombie]

The difficulty I had wasn't softness/stiffness of the cards. The deck from the "other game" lacked the same slipperiness that I enjoy with most other plastic cards. After each riffle the cohesion when sliding the 2 halves together took greater effort. After playing in a 3rd parties game that allowed smoking at the table, I found his cards (Copags) to also be difficult to shuffle, which led me to believe that the Kem issue was cigarette tar, even though I have no idea if the Kem deck owner was a smoker.

Giving Kems a second chance, I bought a set-up, and they warped.

These too, are simply not as slick as I would like them to be, but I wonder if the warping causes increased friction (n) :thumbsdown:

The "oil from people hands seal the cards" theory may be as good as any right now, for why some warp and others don't. I can say that unless I was desperate for new cards I wouldn't buy USPC Kems for more than $6 a set-up.

I'm stocked well enough now that I could ditch the decks every time I play (like @kk405 - that's just baller-level hosting (y) :thumbsup, and I still wouldn't run out of decks in the next couple of years, so I'm not desperate, and no more Kems for me. :

 

[Mac128k]

How do you know if they are USPC or not? Are they all marked on the ace?

 

[Poker Zombie]

How do you know if they are USPC or not? Are they all marked on the ace?

Mine were marked on the plastic box "United States Playing Card Company"

...also on my Ace

 

[Numerobis]

Copag, Modiano, NTP(My favorite), Prestige Bicycle...etc

NTP is my favorite as well. Best quality and readability. Unfortunately they are becoming complicated to find and increasingly expensive

 

[BGinGA]

I was actually hoping to dispel the pre post USPC MYTH in this thread. I've owned 4 sets of pre and three sets of post. There is ZERO difference in the propensity for warping.

This totally agrees with my experience. Every single deck I've seen (or used) has warped, regardless of when produced. Anybody with results otherwise should consider themselves lucky.