Is this a call? Question on ruling. (1 Viewer)

[MrBo]

Discussed this ruling with a friend earlier today. He was the Hero, so bear with me as I try to recount the details as he described them:

Playing 2/5 at MD Live, where there is no betting line and the one-chip call is accepted.
Hero and Villain had been playing together a while and tangled in previous pots. Villain had sucked out on Hero in a big pot and was getting under his skin. Villain appears to be a reg, as he knows all the dealers fairly well and has been friendly with most (on a first name basis, makes conversation, etc.). Hero also notes that Villain had been "dicking with his chips the whole night."

• On the river, Hero holds the nuts and bets last $400 or so into a pot of ~1k, one player folds, Villain goes into tank for 4-5 minutes, hemming and hawing, shuffling his chips, and saying "I should call you" every 30 seconds or so.
• Eventually a single Villain chip falls in the middle (definitely beyond where the betting line would be). It sits there for over a second and Villain makes no attempt to retrieve it.
• Hero (probably itching to rub his nuts in Villain's face) interprets this as a call and tables his hand.
• At this point Villain reaches for his chip, claims he dropped it while shuffling, and folds.
• Dealer accepts it as a fold, Hero calls bullshit, floor is called, dealer explains it was clear Villain simply dropped the chip, floor agrees with dealer's ruling, Hero continues trying to plead his case, suggests checking the video, and voices his concern that dealer is partial to Villain based on their friendly rapport exhibited. Hero was also pretty worked up/cursing and floor suggested he take a walk to cool off otherwise he'd be asked to leave. Hero racks up and calls it a night.

In our conversation, Hero was willing to own up to his own failure to verify with the dealer that it was a call before tabling his hand, or at least wait for more than a second or so before jumping to conclusions, as well as the fact that he didn't handle it as well as he could have. I wasn't there so I can't say for sure how clear the "drop" was or how long Hero allowed it to sit out there before tabling, but it seems to me that this kind of ruling opens the door for angling. It also seems a bit dealer/player-dependent, and the ruling in this instance could have been swayed by Villain's reg status and/or whatever his relationship with the dealer is. Any chance this ruling goes the other way with a different dealer or Villain?

 

[manamongkids]

10000000% it could be different, dealers make their living on regs. They dont make their money on people who occasionally come into the casino or the weekend warriors. In any casino, poker room, or private room you will see preferential treatment for regs.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Player's intent matters. If it was clearly not a deliberate action, it wasn't a call.

If it was an angle attempt, it was a very thin and strange one. All Hero had to do was ask for verification (or simply wait for the dealer's prompt). There was no reason to table his hand except impatience, and that's no one else's problem.

 

[DrStrange]

Do we think villain intended to call? I appreciate that there is an angle where the villain might be forced to call, even where the rules technically force him to call. But that isn't the first question in my mind (though the floor should think of it this way first).

Did he intend to call? I say no. Villain fumbled a chip and was a little tardy in gathering it in. Hero got overly eager and that was that.

It didn't help that the villain was a regular, but I think even a tourist would have gotten the same ruling.

 

[MrBo]

Thanks for the responses. I agree Hero has a certain share of the blame here for carelessly exposing his hand. Overall it still seems like a gray/problematic situation to me. Like I said, I wasn't there so I can't really speak to what it appeared Villain's intent appeared to be, but it does bring up some other questions:

1) Who gets to decide intent? Assuming it's only the dealer, right? But does the floor ever override a dealer ruling regarding player intent that the floor didn't actually witness?

2) Similar to how it's a player's responsibility to protect their cards, is it also a player's responsibility to manage their chips carefully? Would the presence of a betting line make this more likely to be a call?

 

[DJ Mack]

4-5 minutes of hemming and hawing? Why didn't hero call the clock?

Kind of like in professional sports where there are certain plays that are considered judgment calls and thus not reviewable, I've never seen the floor overrule a dealer on a judgment call. I have seen it happen where the dealer misapplies a rule or misinterprets the chain of events. But the bottom line is that the dealer is the first and most (I didn't say perfectly) unbiased witness in these situations. Even if they pull video they're going to see the view from above. They're not going to hear what was said by whom, maybe not even facial expressions. Those all factor in to determining intent. Thus the floor is going to be extremely reluctant to overrule a decision concerning intent.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Even with a betting line, if it's a clear accident, it's hard to see it getting ruled any other way.

Stuff like this comes up in LCP on 2+2 all the time. "Something something something, Hero tables his hand when he wasn't supposed to and loses a bet / the pot / his mind." The verdict is always this: It's each player's responsibility to protect his hand and his action.

"Why did you table your hand if you weren't sure he called?" "I got impatient." Sorry, dude, but that's nowhere near a valid reason to rule that an accidentally dropped chip is a $400 call.

This is also a great example of why the one-chip-call rule is not a good policy.

 

[bergs]

Player's intent matters. If it was clearly not a deliberate action, it wasn't a call.

If it was an angle attempt, it was a very thin and strange one. All Hero had to do was ask for verification (or simply wait for the dealer's prompt). There was no reason to table his hand except impatience, and that's no one else's problem.

Not strange at all. I've seen an older Asian guy pull this twice at 2/5 at Foxwoods. He does that thing (I can't do it) where he's flipping two chips in his hand and then one falls (and it looks pretty natural, but how's he not know he has only 1 chip in his hand now). One time he just stared at me after dropping the chip, the other time it landed on the betting line (Foxwoods has one, doesn't mean alot tho) and looked at his cards and then looked at me. The first time, I tabled my hand and he was actually good. The 2nd time I had the nuts and just looked at the dealer and said "What's that?" and dealer confirmed it was a call and I tabled. He was not happy the 2nd time.

If you're not 100% positive it's a call, just ask the dealer "What's that?" and wait for a definitive ruling. And always table your hand and then protect it until the chips get pushed to you. Angleshooters can eat a bag of fat dicks.

 

[bergs]

Thanks for the responses. I agree Hero has a certain share of the blame here for carelessly exposing his hand. Overall it still seems like a gray/problematic situation to me. Like I said, I wasn't there so I can't really speak to what it appeared Villain's intent appeared to be, but it does bring up some other questions:

1) Who gets to decide intent? Assuming it's only the dealer, right? But does the floor ever override a dealer ruling regarding player intent that the floor didn't actually witness?

2) Similar to how it's a player's responsibility to protect their cards, is it also a player's responsibility to manage their chips carefully? Would the presence of a betting line make this more likely to be a call?

There is a betting line at Foxwoods but it's largely ignored. Don't count on the betting line to help with a ruling or determine an action - if unsure, ask the dealer and get a definitive answer before acting or committing to anything.

 

[bergs]

Even with a betting line, if it's a clear accident, it's hard to see it getting ruled any other way.

Stuff like this comes up in LCP on 2+2 all the time. "Something something something, Hero tables his hand when he wasn't supposed to and loses a bet / the pot / his mind." The verdict is always this: It's each player's responsibility to protect his hand and his action.

"Why did you table your hand if you weren't sure he called?" "I got impatient." Sorry, dude, but that's nowhere near a valid reason to rule that an accidentally dropped chip is a $400 call.

This is also a great example of why the one-chip-call rule is not a good policy.

I like that Foxwoods will flip the player an all-in button, but they often only have 1 and flip it to the person that made the all-in bet, not the caller.

 

[bergs]

4-5 minutes of hemming and hawing? Why didn't hero call the clock?

Kind of like in professional sports where there are certain plays that are considered judgment calls and thus not reviewable, I've never seen the floor overrule a dealer on a judgment call. I have seen it happen where the dealer misapplies a rule or misinterprets the chain of events. But the bottom line is that the dealer is the first and most (I didn't say perfectly) unbiased witness in these situations. Even if they pull video they're going to see the view from above. They're not going to hear what was said by whom, maybe not even facial expressions. Those all factor in to determining intent. Thus the floor is going to be extremely reluctant to overrule a decision concerning intent.

In most games you don't want to be the guy that calls the clock. Nobody likes that guy, and nobody likes subsequently paying off that guy. Bad metagame.

 

[Jimulacrum]

In most games you don't want to be the guy that calls the clock. Nobody likes that guy, and nobody likes subsequently paying off that guy. Bad metagame.

Yeah, it would take a lot for me to call the clock on anyone. In fact, I don't think I've ever called it on anyone. I came close just once, and someone else called it instead. (Dude was chocolate wasted and yapping his brains out for what felt like an extremely long time. It was like his third hand behaving like that.)

 

[doakwolf]

Interesting. Although it could possibly have been an angle from Villain, it could equally have been an angle from Hero (seeing the fallen chip and trying to capitalize on the fumble).

Although I'm sure it wasn't because he was your friend and would have told you.

Shame though but I agree with Bergs and others. Always wait and be sure before tabling. House ruling rules at the end of the day.

This sort of scenario is a reason I put a betting line on my table.

With no betting line though, I guess the house ruled "no call" due to no forward action? Which is fair enough IMO.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

It's an angle, I've seen it before. If you ask if it's a call, presumably you have a good hand, and he'll say he dropped the chip. If you flip and you're beat it's a call, if he's beat it's a fold. Typical bs. Your friend however should have still waited until the dealer determined whether or not it was a call.

 

[bentax1978]

It's an angle, I've seen it before. If you ask if it's a call, presumably you have a good hand, and he'll say he dropped the chip. If you flip and you're beat it's a call, if he's beat it's a fold. Typical bs. Your friend however should have still waited until the dealer determined whether or not it was a call.

Hero should have said something like "nice call, you probably have me" in a dejected tone when the single chip "accidentally" dropped across the line.

Angle the angler.

 

[doakwolf]

Hero should have said something like "nice call, you probably have me" in a dejected tone when the single chip "accidentally" dropped across the line.

Angle the angler.

Hehe yes, this!

 

[Jimulacrum]

It's an angle, I've seen it before. If you ask if it's a call, presumably you have a good hand, and he'll say he dropped the chip. If you flip and you're beat it's a call, if he's beat it's a fold. Typical bs.

Just reading this makes me mad. Anglers and cheaters (basically the same thing, IMO) can all drown in a baseball-stadium piss trough.

 

[Jimulacrum]

After the seventh-inning stretch, of course.

 

[DJ Mack]

In most games you don't want to be the guy that calls the clock. Nobody likes that guy, and nobody likes subsequently paying off that guy. Bad metagame

And that's true enough, but the rule exists for a reason, and every player has every right to use the rules. In this particular situation I think it would have absolutely been reasonable to call the clock:
1) Villain has been getting under Hero's skin all night and it's obvious he's doing it again here. Five minutes is well beyond what anyone would consider reasonable in 99% of situations.
2) Since Hero is not a regular at this venue his likelihood of playing with this guy again is low.

The aversion to calling the clock has always intrigued me. Guys won't do it because it's bad karma, or they'll be perceived as mean or whatever. But then they're perfectly content to use myriad other rules to take advantage of their opponents, particularly those less experienced than themselves. In a home game I completely get it. You play competitively but you don't act like a dick to your grandma or your next door neighbor. These are your friends and your family. But in a casino setting? Fuck that. If you're not prepared to do everything legally possible to take their money you can damn well be sure they'll take yours. I'm there to play poker and make money, not make friends, not waste time while some douche plays hard to get. You're either playing or not. Make up your mind and let's move on to the next hand.

 

[MikesDad]

It's an angle, I've seen it before. If you ask if it's a call, presumably you have a good hand, and he'll say he dropped the chip. If you flip and you're beat it's a call, if he's beat it's a fold. Typical bs. Your friend however should have still waited until the dealer determined whether or not it was a call.

This was my first reaction... If I'm Villain and a chip rolls out into the playing area I'm scooping it up as quickly as possible... Not letting it sit there and saying nothing. It's an angle.

And also agree your friend should have asked before tabling his cards

 

[doakwolf]

It's a good reason for every table to have a (enforced) betting line IMO. Chips and cards passing face down rules no matter the intent. If you're tanking and fiddling with chips and and fumble one over the line, you called whether you like it or not. Shouldn't have been tanking and fumbling like a fool to begin with.

People just basically need to not be uncoordinated fools at the table. And anglers need to get angled just like Bentax said!

 

[bergs]

I was saying not to call the clock if the current game is good and/or if this is your home casino. If the game sucks and I'm at the Commerce where I'll never play again, then maybe I call clock just to be a dick and mix things up, but generally nothing substantially positive comes from calling clock (unless it's a tourney, in which case I can understand the argument due to timed increase in blinds).

 

[Chicken Rob]

I was saying not to call the clock if the current game is good and/or if this is your home casino. If the game sucks and I'm at the Commerce where I'll never play again, then maybe I call clock just to be a dick and mix things up, but generally nothing substantially positive comes from calling clock (unless it's a tourney, in which case I can understand the argument due to timed increase in blinds).

I never call clock. Others call it on me.

 

[eXtremum]

Hero got overly eager and that was that.

+1