Cash Game Is this a call or a raise? (2 Viewers)

[RyGuy]

Good morning, everyone! Sleepy eyes here after a .25/.50 game that ended at 2 AM.

As a proud rule stickler, I actually wasn't sure what to do in this situation that happened last night. No big controversy or anything--just didn't know the answer and am hoping you can set me straight. Assuming we play the standard rules that a single chip is a call, and raises are double the raised amount...

.25/.50 blinds
UTG makes it $2.50
Folds to BB who adds a $5 chip to his .50 without saying anything (he had only $5 and .25 chips in his stack), totaling $5.50 in the pot using three chips.

Is this a call or a raise?

 

[dkersey]

Call, and shouldn't there be 5.25 in pot after this round ? (BB 2.50, UTG 2.50, SB .25)

 

[Jimulacrum]

In a casino, I think he's stuck with a $5.50 raise whether he likes it or not.

In a home game, I would always ask the player to clarify his action.

 

[davesilver88]

if this was like the strictest casino and I was the dealer, I would rule this a call.

And I would also remind said players when placing one chip in, it’s very important to announce your action.

 

[Machine]

In a casino, I think he's stuck with a $5.50 raise whether he likes it or not.

In a home game, I would always ask the player to clarify his action.

+ 1

 

[dmoney]

I voted call, but this is my strongest preference:

I would always ask the player to clarify his action.

If I were hosting I would stop the game immediately and ask, then gently correct/explain, especially if it were a new or inexperienced player.

To get to my vote of call, I was thinking of river scenarios where I have bet (say, $50 in 10x $5 chips) and been raised (eg to $200). If I toss out a single $500 chip, it's clearly a call.

And I would generally lean towards the lesser action in these types of scenarios because (1) it reinforces that you should be more clear if you want to raise and (2) I think it curbs some angling to restrict action vs opening things up.

 

[Jimulacrum]

To get to my vote of call, I was thinking of river scenarios where I have bet (say, $50 in 10x $5 chips) and been raised (eg to $200). If I toss out a single $500 chip, it's clearly a call.

If that's clearly a call, how do you raise to $550 without having to verbalize?

 

[buzzmonkey]

Single oversize chip I'd say call.

 

[BGinGA]

I voted call, but this is my strongest preference:

To get to my vote of call, I was thinking of river scenarios where I have bet (say, $50 in 10x $5 chips) and been raised (eg to $200). If I toss out a single $500 chip, it's clearly a call.

It's only 'clearly a call' if the $500 chip is your only chip in play.

But it's not. You also have another $50 in play, so tossing in your $500 chip makes your total wager "raise to $550".

And for that exact reason, the OP's answer is "raise to $5.50".

Had either player first pulled back their other chips, then tossing in the lone oversize chip would be merely a call (unless announced verbally otherwise).

 

[glynn]

You guys, OP is not asking what your heart believes the rule should be.

 

[glynn]

It's only 'clearly a call' if the $500 chip is your only chip in play.

But it's not. You also have another $50 in play, so tossing in your $500 chip makes your total wager "raise to $550".

And for that exact reason, the OP's answer is "raise to $5.50".

Had either player first pulled back their other chips, then tossing in the lone oversize chip would be merely a call (unless announced verbally otherwise).

Everything you wrote is the literal opposite of the rules:

44: Oversized Chip Betting (Overchips)

If facing a bet or blind, pushing out a single oversized chip (including your last chip) is a call if raise isn’t first declared. To raise with an overchip you must declare raise before the chip hits the table surface. If raise is declared but no amount is stated, the raise is the maximum allowable for the chip. If not facing a bet, pushing out an overchip silently (no declaration) is a bet of the maximum for the chip.

Pulling back the chips turns it into a raise:

46: Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In

[...]

C: [...] 2) If prior chips are partly pulled back OR if prior chips cover the call, the combined final chip bet is a raise if reaching the 50% standard (Rules 43 and 45), if less it is a call. See Illustration Addendum.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Pulling back the chips turns it into a raise:

Rule #44 is for cases when you don't have any chips up. Rule #46 is for cases when the total of the chips put forward do/don't amount to 50% of a full raise.

In the cases @BGinGA mentions, and in the OP, there are multiple chips up, and the total of all the chips put forward is a legal raise.

Again, I posit: if throwing a $500 chip on top of two $25 chips (total $550, a legal raise over the $200) isn't a raise, then what is the mechanic for making a raise to $550 there, without having to verbalize?

I agree with asking for clarification, especially in a home game, but I hard disagree that any of this belongs under the "single oversized chip" rule and should be automatically ruled a call.

 

[RyGuy]

Call, and shouldn't there be 5.25 in pot after this round ? (BB 2.50, UTG 2.50, SB .25)

Apologies--I meant the BB player had $5.50 in the pot.

 

[glynn]

Rule #44 is for cases when you don't have any chips up. Rule #46 is for cases when the total of the chips put forward do/don't amount to 50% of a full raise.

This is simply not true. It's not even controversial. Rule #44 is the single oversized chip rule that the entire industry recognizes. I don't know how to discuss this with you.

 

[RyGuy]

It's only 'clearly a call' if the $500 chip is your only chip in play.

But it's not. You also have another $50 in play, so tossing in your $500 chip makes your total wager "raise to $550".

And for that exact reason, the OP's answer is "raise to $5.50".

Had either player first pulled back their other chips, then tossing in the lone oversize chip would be merely a call (unless announced verbally otherwise).

 

[Jimulacrum]

This is simply not true. It's not even controversial. Rule #44 is the single oversized chip rule that the entire industry recognizes. I don't know how to discuss this with you.

I'm not saying that the single oversized chip rule doesn't exist, isn't valid, or isn't widely used. I enforce it regularly at my own game. It is a good rule.

I'm saying it doesn't apply here, due to the factor of the additional chips being part of the bet. At minimum it creates an ambiguity that should be resolved by the dealer/host asking the player what his intention was.

You do realize there are additional chips up, right? You seem to be completely glossing over this fact.

Also:

Again, I posit: if throwing a $500 chip on top of two $25 chips (total $550, a legal raise over the $200) isn't a raise, then what is the mechanic for making a raise to $550 there, without having to verbalize?

 

[casinochipper22]

OK, I'm pretty dyslexic, but don't 44 and 46 contradict each other? 44 says one chip is a call no matter if you have chips in the betting line already. and 46 is saying, one chip is cool if you're adding to other chips making a raise.

Anyways, the room I worked for went with a call. One chip in, no matter what other chips or action, is just a call.

 

[casinochipper22]

You do realize there are additional chips up, right? You seem to be completely glossing over this fact.

in my room at least, that didn't matter. Adding one chip to the pot, is still one chip rule. I don't know what is widely used, but that's how I was taught.

 

[RyGuy]

Misclicked my empty post above.

Responding to BGinGA's post, that's how I saw it and enforced it. The fact that 1) it wasn't a lone oversized chip, and 2) it was more than 2x the raised amount made it a raise in my eyes.

However, as others have said, I do agree that asking for clarification is the best thing to do first.

 

[dmoney]

what is the mechanic for making a raise to $550 there

If I were hosting, and a player tossed in a single chip, I'm defaulting that it's a call unless I have other info. If a player wanted to raise without verbalizing, I would expect more than a single chip - flick two chips, or slide in a barrel and that would convey to me as dealer/host that the player is conveying more intent than the so called "one chip rule."

But again, in (my) home game

I would always ask the player to clarify his action

 

[glynn]

OK, I'm pretty dyslexic, but don't 44 and 46 contradict each other? 44 says one chip is a call no matter if you have chips in the betting line already. and 46 is saying, one chip is cool if you're adding to other chips making a raise.

The full Rule #46 has a lot of conditions. They put a lot of thought into it!

 

[casinochipper22]

in my room at least, that didn't matter. Adding one chip to the pot, is still one chip rule. I don't know what is widely used, but that's how I was taught.

@Terrys394 Shig told us about that rule. lol. adding a chip onto a like a blind or previous bet was still a call. you remember that one? or seen anything else?

 

[glynn]

I'm not saying that the single oversized chip rule doesn't exist, isn't valid, or isn't widely used. I enforce it regularly at my own game. It is a good rule.

You said:

Rule #44 is for cases when you don't have any chips up.

This is flatly wrong. If a player in MP has $3 in chips out and is facing a $20 bet from the blinds, and he puts out a $100 chip, then that is a call (and the rule that governs it is Rule #44).

 

[RyGuy]

If I were hosting, and a player tossed in a single chip, I'm defaulting that it's a call unless I have other info. If a player wanted to raise without verbalizing, I would expect more than a single chip - flick two chips, or slide in a barrel and that would convey to me as dealer/host that the player is conveying more intent than the so called "one chip rule."

But again, in (my) home game

I guess the question is--does your blind make it two chips if you toss a single chip on top of your blind chips?

 

[casinochipper22]

I guess the question is--does your blind make it two chips if you toss a single chip on top of your blind chips?

nope. one chip = call is what my poker room went with.

 

[RyGuy]

You said:


This is flatly wrong. If a player in MP has $3 in chips out and is facing a $20 bet from the blinds, and he puts out a $100 chip, then that is a call (and the rule that governs it is Rule #44).

I see this as a raise to $103 if those are the only actions. I could be wrong though.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I'm not saying that the single oversized chip rule doesn't exist, isn't valid, or isn't widely used. I enforce it regularly at my own game. It is a good rule.

I'm saying it doesn't apply here, due to the factor of the additional chips being part of the bet. At minimum it creates an ambiguity that should be resolved by the dealer/host asking the player what his intention was.

You do realize there are additional chips up, right? You seem to be completely glossing over this fact.

Also:

Actually, wait, I take this back, based on a reading of the complete rule #46 (which I misinterpreted because the quote didn't include the first part):

C: If new chip(s) are added silently and the bet is unclear to the house, the call and raise rules 41-45 apply as follows: 1) If prior chips don’t cover the call AND are either left alone OR fully pulled back, an overchip is a call and multiple new chips are subject to the 50% raise standard (Rule 43). 2) If prior chips are partly pulled back OR if prior chips cover the call, the combined final chip bet is a raise if reaching the 50% standard (Rules 43 and 45), if less it is a call. See Illustration Addendum.

TBH I don't like this rule, but it would make OP's case a call. Still prefer to clarify, but that's what this rule in full means.

Guess you learn something new every day, as they say.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I have always been told that a single chip tossed onto blinds is still a call and treated like a single big chip rule if there is no verbal declaration.

 

[RyGuy]

nope. one chip = call is what my poker room went with.

 

[RyGuy]

nope. one chip = call is what my poker room went with.

Right, one chip total is a call, but is one oversized chip on top of your blinds still a call since it's not just one chip anymore?