Is it worth it to straddle the button? (1 Viewer)

[nhong77]

I'm seeing some players constantly straddle the button in a $1/$3 9-player game at the local casino. The player on the button puts in $6 staddle to be the last to act, thereby forcing the small and big blinds to act first with a min $6 to call. Is that really a good strategic play to constantly be doing that all night? Is that the game theory optimum or just a stupid play? The button straddler seems to be limping or folding and losing the bet most of the time, rather than exercising the option by raising with the straddle. Any thoughts or feedback? How should the big blind and small blinds adjust to that button straddler?

 

[Jimulacrum]

The answer, like many answers in poker, is that it depends.

Always straddling the button in every game is obviously EV–, but against certain lineups it can have a number of positive effects. Whether they are worth the $6 is a valid question but a little more difficult to answer than most poker equity questions.

How are other players responding to it? Does it cause them to make errors estimating odds? Does it tilt anyone? Does the straddling player tend to get more action than other players?

It sounds like no one is restraddling (if that's even allowed), but propensity of downstream players to restraddle is another factor that can add value.

I may have written a thing or two about this.

 

[Josh Kifer]

Generally, no.

 

[Tonystark137]

Generally if button straddles are allow the game becomes tighter as a result.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

$6 bucks to make the strongest position even stronger, and hopefully induce others to make costly mistakes without adjusting to the change. Count me in! Plus its a way to look much looser than you are. Doesn't sound like your bud is playing it right if he's somehow limping.

How are people responding? I've seen a good amount of games where people call a Bstraddle, I raise and they call again, then fold vast majority of hands to a cbet on the flop. I really enjoy the "I'm gonna out flop him one of these times and then it'll all be worth it!" mentality.

 

[Coyote]

I ban all straddles in my house

 

[springbox]

Putting in extra $ blind is -EV assuming equal skill profiles among players. If it induces bigger pots and you have a strong edge over the other players it may be +EV, but at the same time lowering effective stack sizes simplifies the game which can reduce skill edge.

 

[dizzyChipper]

I disagree that a button straddle is -EV vs most fields. (But I could be wrong. Argument for +EV)

You’re getting ultimate last action on 4 streets instead of 3. The shorter the table the better.

You’re playing, potentially, significantly bigger pots when you have position on the world. The deeper the stacks the better.

You’re playing relatively higher stakes vs other hand. Players that aren’t adjusting to that will overfold / be easier to play because the stakes have gone up. Should be the same game but it won’t be. I saw that recently at @NotRealNameNoSir charity tournament. The pressure of the blinds increasing was commented on by the players. They were less comfortable even though it’s small stakes, T chips and lower SPR makes the game simpler as there’s fewer decisions. It wasn’t. The game was more difficult to them.

 

[Jaxen]

With the straddle there's $10 on the table and nobody's looked at a card yet. A cutoff/hijack with a decent hand can put the whole table to an uncomfortable preflop decision by sticking a $15/20 raise in there and hoping nobody awakens with a monster.

Hold'em straddles are like the guy who completes in the dark with the bring-in in Stud. I know 33% of my hand is better than yours at this moment.

 

[DrStrange]

Would anyone support all-in blind preflop from the button as +EV?

Ok, that's crazy talk. How about a 50bb blind straddle from the button? $100 blind in a $1/$2 game. +EV seems pretty farfetched.

Let's consider a 20bb blind straddle from the button. A $40 straddle from the button in $1/$2. Is that +EV?

SO . . . . . where is the sweet spot for the highest expected value? Not asking if a great player could make it work vs a weak enough field. But facing a table of their peers, how much does the button blind straddle to maximize their EV.

Perhaps zero is not the profit maximizing choice. I'd pay $0.01 to get absolute last action preflop. But is it worth $4 (the minimum allowable straddle size) to get that advantage? I'd say no. Rather look at my cards and raise or fold than blind bet.

For those who don't see it that way - how large should the straddle be to maximize button's profitability?

I play in a $1/$2 game with unlimited button straddles, though they rarely exceed $10. I find playing against them profitable, especially when my stack is shorter. Perhaps that is because of skill differential, but I suspect it is more a strategic error by the button to straddle.

OK, just give me your chips -=- DrStrange

 

[Phoe9x]

Would anyone support all-in blind preflop from the button as +EV?

Ok, that's crazy talk. How about a 50bb blind straddle from the button? $100 blind in a $1/$2 game. +EV seems pretty farfetched.

The deeper you get, the more +EV it would be. So if you’re 10k bbs deep, yeah, a 50bb straddle would be profitable, since you’re essentially playing 200bbs deep. Granted the game would play different at this point as it would be treated as a 1 blind game, there’s no benefit to attacking the bb or sb, but everyone would attack your dead money.

The whole reason the BTN is the most profitable spot is because you have as much information as possible across as many streets as possible. The more shallow you are, the less information you get (1 street or 2 street hands vs something that goes all the way to the river) and therefore you have less chance to figure out the villains range and less profitability

 

[bigjoepoker]

Straddling the BTN is something that I do in smaller home cash games purely because it's fun and can drive action but when playing higher stakes or at a casino I typically will stay away from it as people start playing tighter and you're usually playing from behind.

 

[upNdown]

Button straddles should be banned because they tend to operate as OP describes - they happen every hand, changing a $1/3 game to a $1/3/6 game.
But to answer the question, no, they’re not worth it. All straddles are -ev. The fact that the button straddle is the least -ev does not make it +ev.

 

[WedgeRock]

The fact that the button straddle is the least -ev does not make it +ev.

 

[Highli99]

Position is extremely valuable. I never pass up a button straddle.

 

[Poker Zombie]

They were less comfortable even though it’s small stakes

This is why straddles are -EV.

Players that are uncomfortable with the stakes are generally the fish. If the fish aren't comfortable, they wont return.

No fish = -EV.

 

[dizzyChipper]

This is why straddles are -EV.

Players that are uncomfortable with the stakes are generally the fish. If the fish aren't comfortable, they wont return.

No fish = -EV.

I might've been swayed. Rule #1: Don't tap the glass.

 

[CardRally]

Position is extremely valuable. I never pass up a button straddle.

I’m curious.
You straddle. A couple players call.
When action gets to you what is your raising range? How much do you raise?

 

[Highli99]

I’m curious.
You straddle. A couple players call.
When action gets to you what is your raising range? How much do you raise?

It depends. This question is valid but too broad to answer concisely.

A short answer is that my button raising range isn’t changing, but the pot is now larger so my raises will also be larger.

 

[CardRally]

@Highli99
Sure, specifically:
SB folds, BB calls, 1 MP caller, 1 LP caller, the rest fold.
Do you raise Qc8c?

 

[Old State]

Straddles are internet/tv gambling schtick people saw in those old “high stakes” poker TV games and now do it becasue they think it makes them look aggressive and reckless in a cool way. Bottom straddles are the dumbest type

AC and Vegas don’t have button straddles. I saw it first two weeks ago a crappy and horribly run poker room in PA. The same poker room that had four tables but only two active 10 handed with 6 on the wait list and third dealer looking at their phone. The worst players I’ve ever scene playing poker. 7 people seeing a flop and stacks just moving around between the morons. I associate button straddles with places like this


No straddles at my game.

 

[CardRally]

Seems harsh.
Vegas has 6 to 5 Blackjack and roulette wheels with triple zero. I don’t think they should be the model for how games should be run anymore.

 

[Highli99]

@Highli99
Sure, specifically:
SB folds, BB calls, 1 MP caller, 1 LP caller, the rest fold.
Do you raise Qc8c?

Some of the time I am checking my option and some of the time I am betting large. 5x the straddle.

 

[BogeyBluffer]

Straddle is for gamblers. Poker is skill. However, a skilled gambler can be dangerous. I have no idea what the computer says about this though.

 

[CardRally]

The computer makes -EV plays 0% of the time.
The computer builds a GTO strategy based on playing against opponents who are playing an optimal strategy themselves. Therefore, Vs. Button Straddle strategies rarely come up.
The button straddle could be a good way to throw a wrench in the mental gears of an opponent who has built their strategy from GTO study (like ones with Pacman avatars, for example).

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

The computer makes -EV plays 0% of the time.
The computer builds a GTO strategy based on playing against opponents who are playing an optimal strategy themselves. Therefore, Vs. Button Straddle strategies rarely come up.
The button straddle could be a good way to throw a wrench in the mental gears of an opponent who has built their strategy from GTO study (like ones with Pacman avatars, for example).

I'd flip that on its head. Against GTO studied opponents I would never straddle because they're better at adjusting to bigger pots and different ranges, and would just benefit from us paying more. I use it to pull fish into bigger pots so the inelastic mistakes they make are bigger and better for us.

 

[CardRally]

That makes sense.
When the game has a lot of fish, or when fish are in the blinds? I would think against the kind of fish that limp too often and will limp at the higher price as well…?

 

[Old State]

GTO is pointless at the lower stakes. 90% of $1/2 or $1/3 players aren’t paying attention to anything but their own hands, playing way too many hands and either calling or folding when they shouldn’t

There is little point putting more money in without seeing your hand. You make your money in the lower stakes by making the weak players pay steeply for their dumb draws against your made hands and their inability to fold any type of hand. I’ve also won many large pots getting to see a flop cheap from early position…. Typically making a random two pair or straight and then stacking some guy who catches top pair and can’t let it go.

 

[Tight_Lay_DOWN]

Button straddling is usually negative EV because you are voluntarily putting money in blind with random cards, which is mathematically worse than waiting to invest only with selected hands.

It can become positive EV in a soft game if your positional advantage on the button allows you to exploit weaker players enough to earn back more than the cost of the straddle. In simple terms it is Straddle EV = cost of posting blind minus the value recovered through position and skill edge, so it is only profitable when that recovered edge exceeds the forced blind cost.

In our home games, we either do not allow straddles at all, or, if everyone agrees beforehand, straddles are enforced every hand for the entire session.

We also generally allow only under-the-gun straddles, since the button already has a significant positional advantage. Our view is that if someone wants to increase the action by forcing others to straddle all night, (gamble it up) they should only be allowed to do so from a weaker position, making the game a little more looser. That is one reason straddles are uncommon in our games,

If we want a bigger game, we usually just increase the blinds for the session.

But if you are at a Casino and see players straddling often, that is typically a table be at...

 

[Coyote]

We also generally allow only under-age people to straddle, since their age prevents them from understanding the -EV of that move.

FYP!

If we want a bigger game, we usually just increase the blinds for the session.

Exactly that.