If you can't beat 'em, join 'em? (or, How to win a donkament) (1 Viewer)

[Beakertwang]

My local casino has an inexpensive Wednesday evening tournament. $20 for 5k chips, $5 dealer appreciation for 2k bonus.

There are 2 optional reloads/rebuys. $10 for 5k, $20 for 10k. These can be used at any time. Most players take the first one at the start, and save the 2nd one if they bust out, or use it as an add-on at the break.

Blinds are fairly aggressive. There are usually 30-40 players, and the tourney usually ends in 5 hours.

I know it's a donk fest, but I'll play it once in a while if my wife is busy, or just wanting to veg out and I'm bored. There's absolutely no way to range most of the players. Tons of limped pots. Players will limp call with anything. The guy to my left limped twice with QQ. I raised the button with A8 or A9, early position limp called with AJ suited, flopped the flush. Check-called me on the flop, checked to me turn and river, and I checked back both streets. I limp from middle position with A5 suited. I turn two pair, but lose a small pot to the button, who limped with AK and flopped two pair, but never reraised my turn or river bet.

I busted with the blinds at 200/400, no ante. I'm in the SB with about 11K. 4 or 5 limpers, and I have . I raise to 1400, which is a huge pre-flop raise in this game. BB folds, CO and button limp call. I know one could argue for a shove to pick up dead money, but I was happy to get a couple callers with my aces. Flop is . I shove and get called by the button, who shows. . Turn is , and that's it for me.

So is there any way to strategically put yourself in a position to win a game like this? Part of me says join in the limping, hope to flop the nuts, or catch a huge draw and get paid off. The other side says get way more aggressive against a weak passive field.

My inclination is just not to go back. It's generally a pleasant, fun crowd to hang out with, so I enjoy the atmosphere, and it beats sitting at home doing nothing I guess.

 

[DrStrange]

ABC TAG for the win. Well not 100% win rate, but more than average.

Sure you limp with speculative hands. Not K6o. Not 72s. 98o is fine. A6s is fine. pocket three are fine. Pay attention to position.

Don't "punish the limpers" without the goods.

The more passive the table post flop the more you want to limp with speculative hands.

Get pickier and more aggressive as the blinds grow.

As for your bust out. . . . the preflop went as desired, Hero got the SPR < 3. That flop was not dry - villain's 97 is not very far behind Hero's AA. Still, Hero gets his money in as the favorite and then loses the run out.

These are the situations Hero should be finding and exploiting. The luck will even out, but Hero still has to beat a field of three dozen villains so he is only winning 5% of the events.

 

[Anthony Martino]

see lots of hands early when blinds are small, stacks are deep and players are terrible and will pay off when they shouldn't.

There's a $70 Deep-Stack Blitz on Saturday nights at a local poker room with usually 50-80 runners, and a $10 optional add-on that everyone gets so they start with 40K chips (and there are rebuys for the first hour) with 15 minute blinds.

Last time I played when we got down to 4 players the blinds were 20/40k with a 40k bb ante and there was only 2 million chips in play. But even before that everyone had a really low "M" and a lot of players still tried limping in with TJ offsuit UTG when they should be shipping or folding.

But tournaments like this introduce the bingo element fairly early on which takes away your skill edge somewhat over the field (in the sense that you're forced into committing for stacks sooner in the middle stages, although the early stages afford you a low more leeway).

Still, if you're better at the push/fold game you'll still have some edge over the field, but still need to get lucky regardless as stacks are too shallow to do much else.

 

[JustinInMN]

Don't "punish the limpers" without the goods.

This is exceptional advice. If they are limping so much you don't have to squeeze value out of the AT, KJ, KQ preflop. Limp along, hit your share, plus throw in bluffs in favorable spots.

I mean no strategy is foolproof in tournaments, but this is how you have an edge, not by turning up the aggression yourself, but by taking full advantage of your opponents lack of aggression in marginal spots.

 

[Beakertwang]

I've only played this tourney 4 or 5 times, with no success. But I was just thinking back to my last several shots at this game:

• Raised 5x with , got a call from the small blind. Flop was . I Jam for twice pot, and villain calls with 96o. Busto!
• Crippled when I raised 5x with , BB calls. Flop is something like 986. I jam, BB calls off his stack with 74o and catches the 5 on the turn.
• In the BB with . MP goes all-in for about 3x. CO calls, and I call. Flop is rainbow, one heart. Check check. Turn is a heart, check check. River is a heart, I bet, CO raises me all in, I call and CO shows . Busto!

This game just might not be for me.

 

[JustinInMN]

Raised 5x with , got a call from the small blind. Flop was . I Jam for twice pot, and villain calls with 96o. Busto!

Crippled when I raised 5x with , BB calls. Flop is something like 986. I jam, BB calls off his stack with 74o and catches the 5 on the turn.

So this is really a no fold'em game. Makes me rethink the overjam on the first hand. I mean on the one hand you probably got it in a slight favorite. On the other hand, a check-call on this flop probably limits your downside, but maximizes your upside when you hit.

I like the second hand, you made him pay max pre. Got a pretty bad flop. Villian may or may not have pot stuck himself, but at least you took advantage of atrocious preflop play.

In the BB with . MP goes all-in for about 3x. CO calls, and I call. Flop is rainbow, one heart. Check check. Turn is a heart, check check. River is a heart, I bet, CO raises me all in, I call and CO shows . Busto!

This is just a sick cooler.

 

[Beakertwang]

So this is really a no fold'em game. Makes me rethink the overjam on the first hand. I mean on the one hand you probably got it in a slight favorite. On the other hand, a check-call on this flop probably limits your downside, but maximizes your upside when you hit.

Yeah, in my OP, I was a 55/45 favorite after the flop.

This is just a sick cooler.

No doubt. The guy who won this hand is one of the few players in that game who makes sense to me.

If I go back, I just have to assume that people can have the nuts or at least a draw to it on any board, no matter how they play.

When I busted Wednesday, I said something like "wow, aces cracked by 97", not really complaining, I had a smile on my face. Some OMC said, "well, you let him get there."

 

[Poker Zombie]

John Nash's paper on game theory points out that perfect strategy only works perfectly against perfect opponents. As these players make more and more errors, you need to adjust your game to an imperfect strategy. This may sound crazy, but the truth is, you already have done this if you have ever made a hero-call vs a bluff. Bluffing is an imperfect strategy.

So how did you make the hero-call with top pair when there are 4 cards to a flush on the board (assuming at some point you have done that)? You detected something in your opponent that told you that he missed. You need to focus more on that read in this game. It should be easier than getting reads vs better players, because better players hide their emotions better.

Don't let the bad run-outs discourage you. Variance is a thing. Remember to defend your stack. Play small-ball, and then punish them when you get the nuts. If you are the better player, you will profit in the long term. 4-5 tourneys is not long term. Hell, if you were just average with average variance against average opponents, you still would be unlikely to have cashed a single game if they are paying 10%.

 

[Taghkanic]

Part of me says join in the limping, hope to flop the nuts, or catch a huge draw and get paid off. The other side says get way more aggressive against a weak passive field.

If you play the same way they all are playing, then each game’s results are just going to reflect who happened to get better starting hands/lucky runouts. Of course there’s always a big element of that in tourneys... But by not going against the table grain you’re essentially negating your edge against what sounds like a weak/passive/sticky field.

So I agree with the ABC TAG recommendation, with maybe a little more aggression than usual. The table is probably going to start to resent that you are the lone aggressor, not letting people limp in and see every flop. These players are basically treating a poker tournament like a slot machine. That can work in your favor, as people start to “target” you, if you are careful to exploit it and not fall into a trap.

 

[naaahhh]

I do agree with playing TAG on the flop since there are so many donk bets. Be extra aggressive on the flop against donk bets -- you have position and these guys call with anything. Big raise sizes are good preflop when people have wider calling ranges since you are extracting more value. Be careful with suited boards and middling straight draws on the flop.

 

[Taghkanic]

The good news is that you can often get away with stuff in these tourneys that better players would sniff out.

In one recent game, I ran the exact same move on the same player three times, getting value each time, eventually taking his whole stack.

He did not notice the pattern, falling into the trap each time.

Point being that this player pool is usually a lot less attentive to the action than in better gams; they’re mainly just looking to see if each street improves or doesn’t improve their own hand. They aren’t noticing your bet sizes or patterns, thinking about ranges, from what positions you have VPIP’ed or anything like that.

 

[WedgeRock]

When I busted Wednesday, I said something like "wow, aces cracked by 97", not really complaining, I had a smile on my face. Some OMC said, "well, you let him get there."

Just FYI, it's poor etiquette to punch OMC in the face, no matter how much he deserves it.

You can try what I do...switch out one of his tires in the parking garage.

 

[slisk250]

ABC TAG for the win.

yup... go hard when you have the goods.

 

[Beakertwang]

Just FYI, it's poor etiquette to punch OMC in the face, no matter how much he deserves it.

You can try what I do...switch out one of his tires in the parking garage.

USA! USA! USA!

 

[TheWhiteJZ]

I've only played this tourney 4 or 5 times, with no success. But I was just thinking back to my last several shots at this game:

• Raised 5x with , got a call from the small blind. Flop was . I Jam for twice pot, and villain calls with 96o. Busto!
• Crippled when I raised 5x with , BB calls. Flop is something like 986. I jam, BB calls off his stack with 74o and catches the 5 on the turn.
• In the BB with . MP goes all-in for about 3x. CO calls, and I call. Flop is rainbow, one heart. Check check. Turn is a heart, check check. River is a heart, I bet, CO raises me all in, I call and CO shows . Busto!

This game just might not be for me.

You missed the flop, why are you going all in?

play Tight, when you hit the flop then be aggressive. You will be playing AQ vs Ax a lot. That’s where you make your money. They make their money when they accidentally hit the flop. And they fold when they don’t. So you BOTH need to hit the flop, you just need to have them dominated. They will passively put in all their money when they have any A on an A high board. Have a better one.

On draws don’t semi bluff, but build a pot. IOW bet half not 2x until you’ve made your hand

think about a bomb pot. 2 pair or better is needed to continue. Same with a multi-way limped pot.

Also, don’t ever play aggressively with things like Kx suited or A wheel off. They will luck into what you want to do. With A3 suites you are going for the flush. Pairing the ace is not good enough bc they played all the A6-A9.

 

[Beakertwang]

You missed the flop, why are you going all in?

Because I didn’t have 96 suited to jam pre.

Good question. Honestly, I should have just jammed pre. It was at the stage off the tourney where blinds raise really aggressively. I started the hand with just under 20bb, and blinds were about to go up. I figured a jam would chase out most of the hands that called pre anyway, and the flush draw or overs might come in if I get called.

 

[TheWhiteJZ]

I guess my point is that a passive limper is not gonna limpcall something that hits T64r just to fold when it does. If u cant beat whatever caught part of that board, betting Is dangerous.

IOW, that jam is mostly getting worse to fold (missed the board) and better to call (any piece) ... the opposite of why we bet.

(I finally win in one 2020 and next day try to act like I know wtf I’m talking about)

 

[Beakertwang]

(I finally win in one 2020 and next day try to act like I know wtf I’m talking about)

As long as you don’t start saying things like “you have so much to learn, young grasshopper,” we’re good.

 

[upNdown]

See if there's a point where play gets better. I used to play one where $50 got you 15K, then you could either rebuy twice, or rebuy once and addon 20k at the break for another $50. Point is, there were a lot of chips available up until the first break, so for the first 6 levels, people played stupid.
One example is that I'd always dread a big pocket pair in the early rounds. You can raise 3x or 4x or 5x or 6x, and you're getting called by at least half the table, and eventually losing. Youre better off just limping them, and losing less.
So the solution is to limp everything (well, not everything, but probably the top 1/3 of the deck) in decent position, and folding to preflop raises unless you actually have something. Identify the players you can outplay after the flop, and outplay them. Identify the calling stations, and proceed with caution. As maddening as it seems, I'd usually come close to doubling my stack by the time the rebuys/addons were done. After that, I could play normal poker.

 

[AH77]

It’s difficult playing against people who don’t know the value of their own hand. It’s common to mistake frequent calling for weakness but in the case of these kind of players, it’s often the only tool in their toolbox. They will call 5 streets with as little as bottom pair or with a nut flush. You basically have to play ABC poker and get as much value from your hands as possible. Don’t bluff multiple barrels into them thinking you will get them to fold. If one barrel doesn’t work, slow down and rethink the hand.

 

[APatHand]

If your standard NL moves aren't working, don't use them.
Play it more like a limit tournament until the point that normal NL betting becomes effective.

You have no fold equity while no one is going to fold, so stop trying to calculate that into your actions.

Most of game theory is based on having RATIONAL opponents. If your opponents are not acting rationally, stop modeling them that way.

 

[WedgeRock]

You missed the flop, why are you going all in?

To see where you're at in the hand. Standard.

 

[WedgeRock]

play Tight, when you hit the flop then be aggressive. You will be playing AQ vs Ax a lot. That’s where you make your money. They make their money when they accidentally hit the flop. And they fold when they don’t. So you BOTH need to hit the flop, you just need to have them dominated. They will passively put in all their money when they have any A on an A high board. Have a better one.

All right, here's the thing. You only play premium hands. You only start with jacks or better split, nines or better wired, three high cards to a flush. If it's good enough to call, you gotta be in there raising, all right? I mean, tight, but aggressive. And I do mean aggressive. That's your style, Professor. I mean, you gotta... you gotta think of it as a war.

 

[TheWhiteJZ]

All right, here's the thing. You only play premium hands. You only start with jacks or better split, nines or better wired, three high cards to a flush. If it's good enough to call, you gotta be in there raising, all right? I mean, tight, but aggressive. And I do mean aggressive. That's your style, Professor. I mean, you gotta... you gotta think of it as a war.

Proudest moment of my life: compared to Mike McDermott.

Was thinking about this and a simpler way to say it is ‘play a linear range’. That’s all