How to (get better at) speech play? (1 Viewer)

[TheOffalo]

I’m not the most outgoing person but if players at a table are having fun, I definitely participate and interact. So I’m not just a robot or on headphones on and ignoring everyone.

But I have absolutely no “speech play” and I was wondering how I’d developed this … skill. I see players call out “No red cards” or “I need a club” or “Don’t pair the board” and it’s obviously not as easy as players saying the opposite of what they want, or they’re double-reverse psychologizing you or whatever.

Is most of the stuff just meaningless? How do you incorporate speech play into your game?

 

[chippitydoodah]

Blocking out & deciphering speech play is more important than doing it yourself. Play the game you feel most natural rather than trying to emulate something you're not.

 

[TheOffalo]

Blocking out & deciphering speech play is more important than doing it yourself. Play the game you feel most natural rather than trying to emulate something you're not.

I actually agree, but just curious, like other aspects of the game, how people may develop this aspect.

 

[LeLe]

It’s like a talent, some people are good at lying.

Some people lie for a purpose, some people lie just for the sake of lying.

 

[Roslindale]

Speech play adds to fun at the table, when done right... and is certainly not insulting.

 

[merkong]

85.4% of my game is speech. I’m a winning player and attribute it all to my persona.

 

[merkong]

I actually agree, but just curious, like other aspects of the game, how people may develop this aspect.

It’s certainly an inherent attribute but can be developed. Just start by being more conversational. Take it to “thinking quietly out loud” when making decisions. Then start to involve your opponents; “Do you have me?”, “I think I’m beat.”, and then start taking it back a notch and let your body language (intentional of course) do the speaking for you.

It’s an acquired talent but obtainable by all.

 

[merkong]

Blocking out & deciphering speech play is more important than doing it yourself. Play the game you feel most natural rather than trying to emulate something you're not.

While I agree that you have to be comfortable where your game is and lean into that, not being able to confuse the table at will is a serious missed opportunity.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

it’s obviously not as easy as players saying the opposite of what they want

At most levels, it absolutely is! You'll be amazed how many people just say dumb shit, makes them feel like they're on high stakes poker stream or something.

My big caution is balancing it: if you talk constantly great, but dont get in the habit of only talking while bluffing or making a play. They're going to be looking for changes in your intonation and body language while you're jawing away.

 

[merkong]

Volume (within reason) is king. If you’re active vocally and physically at the table and when in a hand you begin elicit thought in your opponents which often leads to confusion.

Don’t be annoying for crying out loud. Start slow and you’ll see the wheels turning which creates just one more thing for your opponents to have to deal with.

 

[merkong]

At most levels, it absolutely is! You'll be amazed how many people just say dumb shit, makes them feel like they're on high stakes poker stream or something.

My big caution is balancing it: if you talk constantly great, but dont get in the habit of only talking while bluffing or making a play. They're going to be looking for changes in your intonation and body language while you're jawing away.

When talking to our college senior son, who is a newer player but played winningly all summer at our game, I totally emphasize intonation. It’s sooooo much of what I use in my art of deception and in the detective work I do.

I told him this; think about a table playing a hand face up. There is no opportunity to represent your hand in any way other than exactly what it is. Now put the cards face down and play the same exact hand with glances, sighs, fidgeting, self-whispers, groans.

Whole new ball game.

 

[Senzrock]

Speech play is one of the most fun aspects of poker imo but it's also not for everyone. If you are someone who doesn't feel comfortable having a "Table presence" - then I would actually advise against it (for $ reasons). However, if you are open to it, I highly encourage trying to develop different strategies for speech play and try to get into your opponents hears. It can really add to your enjoyment at the tables and can actually be a very profitable strategy. I love it when I'm at a game and players are really talking to each other trying to psych each other out, it just makes for a great gambling environment.

 

[merkong]

I rarely, at least infrequently, engage directly with a single or a couple of opponents. It’s an aspect, but one of many. I far prefer “saying the quiet part out loud” in both action as well as words. Self-talk (beratement, second-guessing myself, talking myself into and out of a play) Going into a mini tank, grabbing my calling chips and then restacking them, checking my cards, leaning back in my chair etc… Direct engagement has its place but has a higher backfire rate and is completely dependent on the opponent.

Wait, there’s like several chippers that visit my game.

I mean, I’m Mr. Face Value. A robot if you will. If I bet I have it and if I’m talking I’m bluffing.

There. Fixed it.

 

[Legend5555]

I used to use it back in the mid-2000s. But as I've gotten older and better at the game, I've mostly stopped entirely. I employ it in some rare circumstances where I'm pretty sure my opponent is about to do the opposite of what I want. But that's about the only time I do it. Most of the people I play with have a hard time figuring out what I have anyway. Don't want to start screwing with that.

 

[Legend5555]

On the flip side... I find that I'm pretty good at deciphering others speech play. So, IMO, don't use speech play as a general guideline.

 

[chippitydoodah]

How do you know when a poker player is lying?

Spoiler: ANSWER

Their lips are moving

There are way more successful professional poker players who don't use speech play. You know them all very well but because they don't cause controversy they're not getting major TV time. I think the best of all is Phil Ivy.

 

[Senzrock]

I guess, getting back to the original question - how to get better at speech play (the assumption being made is that you have already decided that you want to incorporate it), I think you need to do a few things:

1. Make sure you are comfortable in the games you are playing. I mean this in terms of the stakes your playing but also the people at your table, the hosts etc. Without that comfort level, I think it will be harder to practice/deploy much speech play. You might want to think about the lowest stakes and the friendliest game you play in, and start practicing there.

2. Assuming you are comfortable, I think paying close attention to players tendencies and then figuring out ways to use speech play to make them less comfortable with their decision making. Think about what they don't want to hear at any given moment and use that against them. If you want them to call you light, use speech play to give off the sense that you're here to gamble and have a good time. If you want them to fold think about what you might say if you had the nuts (To use one common example: if they ask you "will you show if I fold" - if you are bluffing, I will often say "I'm sorry you're going to have to pay for that information" but if I have it I might enthusiastically say "Yes, if you fold then I will show" - just some basic reverse psychology to get you going). The better you get to know the players at the table, the better a sense you will have of what to say or not to say imo.

But, yes, I do agree with much of what @Legend5555 said above. If profit is your bottom line, and you have never employed speech play, it is unlikely that doing so will lead to profitability in the short term (although it could be valuable in the long term once you get good at it).

 

[upNdown]

It’s an acquired talent but obtainable by all.

I disagree. I think some people (probably the majority) are never going to be good at it. And I think a large chunk of people (maybe even the majority) who think they’re good at it just actually aren’t.
I’m talking about playing in the real world, against semi pros and pro types. Guys who are legit good at poker are going to see right through most of the crap that most people say. On the other hand, if you just want to have fun with your home game drinking buddies, have at it.

But look at Phil Hellmuth. By some standards he’s one of the best of all time. He’s a terrible table talker and I’m pretty sure he knows it. Because 95% of the time he’s in a hand, he shuts down completely. He’d rather give nothing away and focus on reading his opponent. If table talk was learnable and worthwhile, don’t you think he would have incorporated into his game at some point in the last 40 years?
Ivey is another great example, as @chippitydoodah points out. Not only does that guy refuse to talk, but he’s so concerned about giving anything away that he dangles his mouth open like a slack-jawed idiot (or at least he used to) rather than risk giving something up with an inadvertent lip movement.

 

[chippitydoodah]

There's a reason why "Poker Face" has been an expression for over 150 years.

 

[MrBoosh]

The best way to start getting comfortable with table talk is to just jump in head first and ask everyone at the table if they know who the F you are!?! And them tell them you will have sex with all their moms in front of them!

 

[chippitydoodah]

Oh fuck I'm dying MrBoosh!

 

[chippitydoodah]

"I will torture your mother in front of you"

 

[upNdown]

And I’ll add this. Again, this doesn’t refer to home games with friends, because if you’re not talking it up, busting balls and having fun, then you’re not doing it right. But in public, non-friend settings, I believe that most successful table talk is actually successful because it’s simply annoying as hell. I think you’re far more likely to tilt an opponent into making bad decisions than you are to actually manipulate them. And successful is successful, so good on guys who win that way. But I don’t think there are many master hypnotists at the tables - the talkers are mostly just tilting.

 

[chippitydoodah]

The real life inspiration for Leslie Chow

 

[upNdown]

How do you know when a poker player is lying?

Spoiler: ANSWER

Their lips are moving

There are way more successful professional poker players who don't use speech play. You know them all very well but because they don't cause controversy they're not getting major TV time. I think the best of all is Phil Ivy.

Here’s another interesting thought about pros and speech play. I’ve watched a lot of Daniel Negreanu over the years. I think he’s pretty crappy at speech play, if we’re talking about HIS speech. He wins with speech play by getting the other guy to talk, and reading him. He’s REALLY good at that. But when he’s talking to try to put ideas in other people’s heads, not so much.

 

[chippitydoodah]

Here’s another interesting thought about pros and speech play. I’ve watched a lot of Daniel Negreanu over the years. I think he’s pretty crappy at speech play, if we’re talking about HIS speech. He wins with speech play by getting the other guy to talk, and reading him. He’s REALLY good at that. But when he’s talking to try to put ideas in other people’s heads, not so much.

This one worked out just fine:

 

[ThrowBack]

More important than aggressive speech play is defensive speech play

Have a few canned answers to general table talk

 

[wickedwonka121]

I pick and choose when to start talking about my hand. Idk how I do it, but most people call or raise when I want them too. I think they just don't want to believe my confidence. Do they think I'm a good liar? Maybe they just think I'm full of shit. I've gotten way more calls to my all in by telling my opponent things like "don't call this, I have the ace". And they wince when I show it to them. Lol! If I could teach it I would do that full time.

 

[Headhunter13]

One of the big keys to successful speech play is being comfortable in the conversation. I think the confidence during the conversation is part of what throws off your opponent.

Do you play home games or at a casino/card room? If you play both, start with home games where you're more comfortable with the players. Rather than jump straight into speech play, start by just talking to others at the table about anything other than poker. Then as a hand develops, continue talking, but move the discussion to your/their hand. Don't be afraid to flat out lie about your hand or theirs ... many people don't mind bluffing, but they don't like outright lying.

As was said earlier, make sure you don't always talk when bluffing, or don't always talk when you have it. A big live tell is acting differently than normal, and speech play/talking is part of that.

At the end of the day, it's fun banter, but you can be a very successful poker player without it.

 

[Headhunter13]

Here’s another interesting thought about pros and speech play. I’ve watched a lot of Daniel Negreanu over the years. I think he’s pretty crappy at speech play, if we’re talking about HIS speech. He wins with speech play by getting the other guy to talk, and reading him. He’s REALLY good at that. But when he’s talking to try to put ideas in other people’s heads, not so much.

I disagree about this. I think he's one of the best. The whole point of speech play is to get your opponents to talk and expose things about themselves or their hand. He gets people comfortable at the table, which is a great first start. Then they start opening up about their personal lives, experience level, etc. Of course he's not getting Dwan or Antonius to do this, but he gets the average rec player to do so because "OMG, That's Daniel Negreanu talking to me!"