Tourney Deepstack Tournament Advice (1 Viewer)

[Gameface]

I'm trying to put together a structure for a deepstack tournament. It will be a T50k that I'd like to run around 6hrs, give or take an hour. This will be a bigger buy-in event that I'll only host a few times a year. I'm planning on a $100 buy-in. I want it to feel bigger and play like a real deepstack event.

I have plenty of T25 chips to use for this, but I'd rather use T100-T25k and not mess with the T25s.

20 players, no rebuys

Planned starting stacks are:

(15/5/16/6) or (10/4/7/8)

15 x 100
5 x 500
16 x 1000
6 x 5000

or

10 x 100
4 x 500
7 x 1000
8 x 5000

But the thing I have the biggest question on is my blind structure. I have a tendency to sometimes try to get a little too creative and I wonder if I'm doing that here. But before I list the structure, the thinking is to progress through the first few rounds as if I was using T25s and starting at 25/50. But instead of having several rounds just having a few longer rounds. I like long rounds at the beginning of a tournament in general.

So here it is.

100/200 1hr
200/400 1hr
break & chip up 100s
500/1000 30min
1000/2000 30min
1500/3000 20min
break and chip up 500s
2000/4000 20min
3000/6000 20min
5k/10k 20min
7k/14k 20min
break and chip up 1000s
10k/20k 15min
15k/30k 15min
20k/40k 15min
25k/50k 15min
30k/60k 15min
40k/80k 15min
50k/100k 15min

I've debated a 300/600 and 700/1400 round, but not sure. If added I'd start 20min rounds on the 500/1000 level and go to 15min rounds after the second break.

But the big question is the two opening rounds at 1hr. I like the idea but just wondering what other people think?

 

[Poker Zombie]

God no...

Luckily, you've come to the right place.

Calling @BGinGA !

 

[Gameface]

God no...

Luckily, you've come to the right place.

Calling @BGinGA !

Why no?

My alternative would be something more like

25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
200/400
300/600...

I don't like fast rounds in the beginning. I also see no difference between a few longer rounds and several shorter ones when the blinds are low. I'd get to about the same place at the end of three hours either way and with 50k stacks the big early jumps really don't matter very much.

I won't do 15 min rounds in the first hour. I absolutely cannot stand when the button doesn't make a full orbit before the blinds go up.

 

[Gameface]

In the T5000 I play at someone else's house the host recently moved the first 4 rounds to 30min and eliminated a few levels. I like it and the other players have liked it as well.

 

[BGinGA]

A 50k stack tourney with 100/200 opening blinds really isn't a deepstack event -- that's only 250bb, which is not that uncommon for relatively short playable tournaments (most are in the 150-300bb range).

If wanting to avoid using T25 chips and create more of a deep stack feel, consider starting with 100/100 blinds (500bb) for 40 minutes, followed by 100/200, 100/300 (also for 40 minutes each).

That puts L4 (200/400) starting at two hours in with 125bb, at which point you can shorten the levels a bit and let it play out naturally to completion.

I wouldn't use any level jumps of 100% (or even any larger than 50%), because it pretty much just negates the purpose of starting with big stacks in the first place. If starting with only 250bb and cutting it in half at the very next blind level, any premise of a 'deep stack' event is just an illusion.

 

[DoubleEagle]

I'm trying to put together a structure for a deepstack tournament. It will be a T50k that I'd like to run around 6hrs, give or take an hour. This will be a bigger buy-in event that I'll only host a few times a year. I'm planning on a $100 buy-in. I want it to feel bigger and play like a real deepstack event.

I have plenty of T25 chips to use for this, but I'd rather use T100-T25k and not mess with the T25s.

Planned starting stacks are:

(15/5/16/6) or (10/4/7/8)

15 x 100
5 x 500
16 x 1000
6 x 5000

or

10 x 100
4 x 500
7 x 1000
8 x 5000

But the thing I have the biggest question on is my blind structure. I have a tendency to sometimes try to get a little too creative and I wonder if I'm doing that here. But before I list the structure, the thinking is to progress through the first few rounds as if I was using T25s and starting at 25/50. But instead of having several rounds just having a few longer rounds. I like long rounds at the beginning of a tournament in general.

So here it is.

100/200 1hr
200/400 1hr
break & chip up 100s
500/1000 30min
1000/2000 30min
1500/3000 20min
break and chip up 500s
2000/4000 20min
3000/6000 20min
5k/10k 20min
7k/14k 20min
break and chip up 1000s
10k/20k 15min
15k/30k 15min
20k/40k 15min
25k/50k 15min
30k/60k 15min
40k/80k 15min
50k/100k 15min

I've debated a 300/600 and 700/1400 round, but not sure. If added I'd start 20min rounds on the 500/1000 level and go to 15min rounds after the second break.

But the big question is the two opening rounds at 1hr. I like the idea but just wondering what other people think?

A deepstack event doesn't mean you start with huge 50K stack. It has more to do with the number of big blinds you are starting with and the length of time the tourney is expected to run. Structure is the most important part. I would never play in an event with this structure, especially with the length of the rounds starting at an hour and ending with 15 min. The end of the tourney will just be a shovefest.

 

[inca911]

By shortening the rounds as the blind structure increases, you are pushing the tournament into more of a shove-fest later in the evening. My personal recommendation for a T50k lasting roughly 6 hours would look like something this. Note the continual decrease in blind increase percentages as the tournament progresses + the increase in time per blind level. Naturally, adjust as you wish:

Edit to add a T100 base "high roller" T100k structure:

 

[Gameface]

I think the people I play with would find 100/100 and 100/300 far more odd and off putting than long blind levels and big jumps when at a point when the blinds aren't big enough to really matter.

I get the conventional wisdom of multiples of BBs, but again, if after 2-3 hours we're in the same place why does it matter? The blinds will not be forcing any of the action in the first few hours either way?

 

[Gameface]

I have hosted a few hundred tournaments. Well received and many long-term return players who bring friends. (Note: I have never had a structure like I proposed in the OP, lol.) I'm not trying to reject the advice you guys are giving me. I realized when posting I was taking a very out of the box approach.

I like long blinds early. I prefer each blind level gets at least two orbits. 15min blind levels early often don't make it around the table.

I don't want long early blinds to extend the length of the tournament by too much. And as I mentioned, the early blinds, anything less than 100x BB, doesn't really force the action. People aren't going all-in because there was a 100% blind increase from 100/200 to 200/400.

And in the later rounds, when the blinds are at 15min, that's when there will be around 6 players and the stacks will be relatively large or on life support in general anyway. The button will make it around the table many times in 15 min. Way fewer limpers at this point in a tournament. Way more folding to the BB. And the increases are smaller. I could cut a few levels and stick with 20min blinds at the end, but again, when it takes the same amount of time to get to the same place I don't see why the % increase matters so much.

My alternative to 100/200 then 200/400 is using T25s and starting at 25/50 then 50/100 (gasp... 100% increase). If you guys find my approach a little too weird I'll just use the T25s and go the more traditional route.

But there seems to be a pretty lock-step philosophy for blind structures that I think several of you are not willing to challenge. I get it, there is a formula, it works. Why get cute?

 

[Poker Zombie]

Poker isn't about getting to a particular space midway through the tournament. The journey is the fun (unless you bink the tournament, that's more fun).

1 hour blind levels will just feel stagnant. Pushing chips back and forth, with no real big pot sizes unless someone gets dealt a monster cooler. 2 hours in, and you haven't even started playing.

I get your point about the odd blind levels BG uses. I'm not a fan of them on paper, but having played with them a couple of times now, I have to admit it's barely noticeable.

I personally am not opposed to 100% increases, and use a 100% blind increase schedule once or twice a year - because that is common in a lot of low-cost tournaments. That said, I keep the 100% jumps consistent, and the blind levels long (25 minutes for a 4.5 hour event).

 

[Gameface]

By shortening the rounds as the blind structure increases, you are pushing the tournament into more of a shove-fest later in the evening. My personal recommendation for a T50k lasting roughly 6 hours would look like something this. Note the continual decrease in blind increase percentages as the tournament progresses + the increase in time per blind level. Naturally, adjust as you wish:

View attachment 159321

Edit to add a T100 base "high roller" T100k structure:

View attachment 159328

Having played plenty of tournaments, I really really don't get increasing the level times as the tournament progresses. In the home games I've hosted and played in the shove-fest seems to come in the middle rounds when players who have been sitting on their hands for a few hours start getting short-stacked. Towards the end people have either big stacks or lost a big hand and are on life support. No amount of longer levels changes that. Other than a couple chip-leaders playing a hand, big hands get all-in one way or another. Having 15bbs or 10bbs isn't the difference maker for a player who got dealt QQ.

 

[Gameface]

I appreciate the responses. I'm going to go do my cardio and digest your suggestions.

Thanks!

 

[DoubleEagle]

Here what I use in our "deep stack" events. It usually runs about 8 hours or just over depending on when or if there is a deal (there almost always is). We generally have about 25 to 30 players, occasionally up to 35 or so. Starting stacks are $15,000.

All levels 30 min.

1 $25-$25
2 $25-$50
3 $50-$100
10 Min Break
4 $75-$150
5 $100-$200
6 $150-$300
10 Min Break Remove $25 Chips
7 $200-$400
8 $300-$600
9 $400-$800
10 Min Break
10 $600-$1,200
11 $800-$1,600
12 $1,000-$2,000
5 Min Break Remove $100 Chips
13 $1,500-$3,000
14 $2,000-$4,000
15 $4,000-$8,000
5 Min Break Remove $500 Chips
16 $6,000-$12,000
17 $8,000-$16,000
18 $10,000-$20,000
19 $15,000-$30,000
20 $20,000-$40,000

 

[BGinGA]

ending with 15 min. The end of the tourney will just be a shovefest.

By shortening the rounds as the blind structure increases, you are pushing the tournament into more of a shove-fest later in the evening.

Fwiw, I totally disagree with blanket statements that infer that shorter blind times in the closing rounds creates a "shove-fest" environment.

As the table size gets smaller, decreasing blind level times merely means that the same number of hands are getting played per level as in previous longer levels when there were more players. This has exactly zero effect on the event becoming a shove-fest, which is a function of the remaining stack sizes, blind amounts, and the rate at which they are increased.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Fwiw, I totally disagree with blanket statements that infer that shorter blind times in the closing rounds creates a "shove-fest" environment.

As the table size gets smaller, decreasing blind level times merely means that the same number of hands are getting played per level as in previous longer levels when there were more players. This has exactly zero effect on the event becoming a shove-fest, which is a function of the remaining stack sizes, blind amounts, and the rate at which they are increased.

I would agree to a point, but the shorter blind levels force play sooner creating a shovefest at some point.

 

[Mojo1312]

You did not state how many players or whether this will be a re-buy tournament.

Levels 1-4 30 minutes, and 20 minutes thereafter.

100/200
100/300
200/400
300/600
(Break)
400/800
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000
(Break)
3000/6000
4000/8000
6000/12000
8000/16000
10000/20000
15000/30000
(Break)
20000/40000
30000/60000

 

[inca911]

I really don't get increasing the level times as the tournament progresses. In the home games I've hosted and played in the shove-fest seems to come in the middle rounds when players who have been sitting on their hands for a few hours start getting short-stacked. Towards the end people have either big stacks or lost a big hand and are on life support.

If the tournament is slowed down (i.e., via increased level times) in the yellow/orange M zones, it provides players more time/hands to maneuver. In a tournament with a very slow start, the majority of play time is spent in the green zone. That's perfectly fine, as the players at your game appear to like that format. No reason to change what they like. If players do not adapt play-styles based on stack sizes in that format, there will be a lot of all-in vs. fold decisions occurring from those players who have been playing too tightly (e.g., limping way too much).

That said, I prefer allowing more time when the players are in the yellow/orange zones, which can be accomplished by increased level times. I play in one monthly tournament that has a one hour "player's round" that occurs just prior to the typical player Orange zone (i.e., M of 6-10). It's an interesting format, and attempts to de-emphasize the impact of escalating blinds at this key transition point. After the one hour round, the blinds continue to increase to force a conclusion between the big stacks.

Sounds like you know what your group likes, so I'm sure you will pick a good structure!

 

[Gameface]

You did not state how many players or whether this will be a re-buy tournament.

Levels 1-4 30 minutes, and 20 minutes thereafter.

100/200
100/300
200/400
300/600
(Break)
400/800
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000
(Break)
3000/6000
4000/8000
6000/12000
8000/16000
10000/20000
15000/30000
(Break)
20000/40000
30000/60000

Ahh. My bad

20 players, for this one no rebuys.

OP updated

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Gameface]

If the tournament is slowed down (i.e., via increased level times) in the yellow/orange M zones, it provides players more time/hands to maneuver. In a tournament with a very slow start, the majority of play time is spent in the green zone. That's perfectly fine, as the players at your game appear to like that format. No reason to change what they like. If players do not adapt play-styles based on stack sizes in that format, there will be a lot of all-in vs. fold decisions occurring from those players who have been playing too tightly (e.g., limping way too much).

That said, I prefer allowing more time when the players are in the yellow/orange zones, which can be accomplished by increased level times. I play in one monthly tournament that has a one hour "player's round" that occurs just prior to the typical player Orange zone (i.e., M of 6-10). It's an interesting format, and attempts to de-emphasize the impact of escalating blinds at this key transition point. After the one hour round, the blinds continue to increase to force a conclusion between the big stacks.

Sounds like you know what your group likes, so I'm sure you will pick a good structure!

So just to reiterate, I have NEVER used a structure remotely close to the one in the OP. It was an idea that I wanted to explore and it seems one that doesn't strike a community of experienced tournament organizers and poker players as a good one. But it also seems the idea was not explored as much as it was rejected out of hand.

I don't know that the players really like to spend a lot of time in the green zone. But we'll be in the green zone for pretty much the same amount of time when I change this back to a 25/50 starting blind with level times that are more consistent throughout.

Not using the T25s was an idea, but not one with any real reason or purpose other than not messing around with T25s in a T50k tournament. They are 1/2000th of the starting stack, so why clutter things up, I thought.

 

[Gameface]

So I am possibly misusing the term "deepstack." My motivation here is not to have a tournament that lasts considerably longer than our normal tournament, which is about 5hrs. But a little longer and one that has a "bigger" feel to it... all to motivate the cheaper contingent in the group to pony up $100 for more of a special event type of game than just our normal game at higher stakes.

I've got to talk to some of the core players to see where they are at anyway.

Right now we play every other week at someone else's house. I haven't hosted for over a year, but the other host is big into boating and once summer rolls around he isn't going to be hosting weekend games. I'm renovating my poker gear and gearing up for a relaunch of my game around mid-April to May.

The current host and I have very different approaches to hosting and maybe I'm a little competitive and want to set my game apart. We co-hosted a league a while back and there are some things he's done that I don't like and some things I think lack integrity and respect for his fellow players so I would never consider co-hosting with him again.

More than half the players at his game are players I recruited from my previous group. When he's done hosting I'll bring several more over from another pool of players and hopefully get a few that he recruited.

I really appreciate the ability to get feedback on my crazy ideas from this community.

You may have to pull me back from the ledge one or two more times before I start hosting again, but I have time to figure things out before I start back up.

 

[Mojo1312]

I have played in all kinds of tournaments, from a 150BB MTT with an unlimited re-buy period during level one that had a 75BB add-on option during the break. Henceforth, the blinds doubled every 20 minutes. I have played in non profit MTT's with a gradual blind progression up until 5K/10K, and then the blinds jumped to 10K/20K.

I, too, like the idea of having longer levels at the start of a tournament, but not at the expense of having significantly shorter levels or aggressive blind increases near the end.

Lets say a player flops a set, and another player makes a straight on the turn. Under that scenario it is going to be difficult for either player to fold their hand. Last night during the tournament at the casino a player flopped quad eights and another player a full house with pocket threes. (8,8,3 flop) How do you find a fold in that hand? I donked off some chips after raising with A,10c playing $1/$3 four handed after the tournament. The flop was three clubs, including the Ace. I made a continuation bet that the player beside me snapped called. I checked the turn. He bet around third of the pot. I considered folding due strictly to the fact that this player is never calling my pre-flop raise or my c-bet without having a strong hand. I didn't, and caught the club flush on the river. I thought the fourth club might be a winning card for me, but at the same time I wanted to control the pot. I checked, and he bet roughly 40% of the pot. I hesitantly called and lost to A,Qc. He was ahead the entire time.

Any of the above, or a variety of other hand situations can take a chunk out of a players stack, which is why I prefer gradual increases over sporadic jumps. You are also ensuring there is going to be a fair amount of play throughout all stages of the tournament. To Inca's point when it comes to not reducing the length of the levels at the end of the tournament - playing in the green zone may be fun, but the most important decisions are going to be made in the orange zone.

Levels 1 and 2 30 minutes, 20 minutes thereafter.

100/200
100/300
200/400
300/600
400/800
(Break)
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000
3000/6000
(Break)
4000/8000
6000/12000
8000/16000
10000/20000
15000/30000
20000/40000 -- 6 hours plus breaks at this level's completion.
30000/60000

 

[Gameface]

@BGinGA

starting at 25/50 what would you consider an ideal 50K deepstack tournament that would last 8hrs give or take a couple hours.

If I do a true deepstack I'll probably break for a meal for a couple hours in the middle.