Tourney Deep stack structure. Antes? (1 Viewer)

[doughboy63]

I need some advice for my structure for the final game of my league’s inaugural season.

League setup:
10 guys; 10 games, 2k starting stacks. You get points based on finish order of each of the 10 regular season games(win:10pts->first out 1pt).

The final (11th) game will be a 5k starting stack plus 100 chips for each point you get through the season. So that’s 105k chips in play for the final game.

Chips available:
300x$5
300x$25
300x$100
240x$500
300x$1k
160x$5k
20x$25k (they won’t see play, I know)

Typical structure for the 2k games:

20 minute rounds

10/20
20/40
30/60
40/80
Break, chip up $5s
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
Break, chip up $25s
200/300
300/600
400/800
500/1000
Break
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/3000

We normally start at 8 and finish in 4ish hours, last game ended in the 500/1000 round.

The idea of the last game with the deep stacks is to have a much longer game probably 8ish hours.
It will still be 20 min rounds. And I want them to still start fairly low, not sure if it should still be 10/20 but for sure wouldn’t want to start any higher than 25/50.

Would love some help with the structure. Not sure if/when I should add in antes or not. Also open to any improvements to the 2k structure above.

Thanks in advance.

 

[TexRex]

Here is a structure with 10 players, 10,000 starting stacks, that should end after 8 hours of play.

1 10 20
2 15 30
3 20 40
4 25 50
5 30 60
6 40 80
7 50 100
8 60 120
9 80 160
10 100 200
11 125 250
12 150 300
13 200 400
14 250 500
15 325 650
16 400 800
17 500 1,000
18 600 1,200
19 800 1,600
20 1000 2,000
21 1300 2,600
22 1600 3,200 *
23 2000 4,000 *
24 2500 5,000 *
25 3000 6,000
26 4000 8,000
27 5000 10,000
28 6000 12,000

Adding antes makes the ending time less predictable because the varying amount of chips going in every round makes it difficult to calculate. The average % of blind increase is around 27%. The * indicates the 3 rounds this is likely to end -- 7:00 to 8:00. You could increase the chip stacks to 12,000 average and go 7:20 to 8:20.

I'm sure BG will have an idea on this.

 

[doughboy63]

Thanks for the input. I too am interested in what @BGinGA has to say.

 

[BGinGA]

Shoot me a pm reminder and I'll take a look later this afternoon.

 

[moose]

I would only use antes on tournies greater than 20 players. The purpose of antes is threefold:
1. help smooth out the jumps per level
2. drive action and keep the tourney bustouts moving at a reasonable pace.
3. prevent people from avoiding play and waiting out the other players in a multi-table situation near the bubble and/or the final table.

This isn't really necessary in a single table tourney because as they antes really take effect, the table will be short handed and near the money anyways.

Reasons #3 are why I am also against this new popularity of using button antes. A button ante lets the nits continue to be nits until the blinds are so high that every player is practically forced into a push/fold decision every hand with no actual play involved. In fact a button ante would probably make this situation even worse.

 

[Frogzilla]

Another option is to leave structure as-is, and stretch the levels to either 25 or 30 min each from 20 min

 

[BGinGA]

Here's how I recommend handling the ten T2000 league tournaments:

T2000 starting stacks (100bb)
10 x T5
10 x T25
12 x T100
1 x T500
----------------
33 chips

blind schedule (20-minute levels)
lvl sb bb
L1 10 20
L2 15 30
L3 20 40
L4 30 60
L5 40 80
remove T5 chips (requires 1x T500 chip)
L6 50 100
L7 75 150
L8 100 200
L9 150 300
remove T25 chips (requires 5x T500 chips)
L10 200 400
L11 300 600
L12 400 800
L13 500 1000 ***EOT-2K
L14 600 1200
L15 800 1600

With 20-minute levels, the tournaments will typically finish no later than L13, or about 4:20 plus breaks. Using 15-minute levels will slice off about an hour.


For the final tournament, I'd go with this:

T10500 average starting stacks (210bb)
12 x T25
12 x T100
5 x T500
1 x T1000
---------------
30 chips = T5000 base stack. Add additional T1000, T500, and T100 chips to each stack based on earned points.

blind schedule (30-minute levels)
lvl sb bb
L1 25 50
L2 25 75
L3 50 100
L4 75 150
L5 100 200
L6 150 300
remove T25 chips (requires 3x T1000 chips)
L7 200 400
L8 300 600
L9 400 800
L10 500 1000
L11 600 1200
L12 800 1600
remove T100 chips (requires 12-16x T1000 chips)
L13 1000 2000
L14 1500 3000
L15 2000 4000
L16 2500 5000 ***EOT-10K
remove T500 chips (requires 7-8x T5000 chips)
L17 3000 6000
L18 4000 8000
L19 5000 10000

With 30-minute levels, the tournament will typically finish no later than L16, or about 8 hours plus breaks.

As Rob mentioned above, I would advise against using antes, as they will just slow down play without providing any positive benefits in a single table setting.

 

[Mojo1312]

Here is a blind structure that might work for your group. You can implement 25 or 30 minute rounds, whichever is the best fit. The former gives you the flexibility to pause the clock until the bubble breaks. (Stop the clock when you are down to four and restart the clock when you have your final three.) And for capping the blinds at 1200/2500 or 1500/3000.

25/25
25/50
25/75
50/100
Break
75/150
100/200
150/300
200/400
Break, chip up T25's
200/500
300/600
400/800
500/1000
Break
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
1200/2500
Break, chip up T100's
1500/3000
2000/4000

 

[doughboy63]

Thanks everyone for your input! This community is such an awesome resource.

 

[Coyote]

As Rob mentioned above, I would advise against using antes, as they will just slow down play without providing any positive benefits in a single table setting.

Being totally inexperienced in tourneys, I would like to ask a side-question with this opportunity (I am not sure it deserves a thread of its own, unless the mods judge differently):
If the aim is to initially provide 4-5 guaranteed hours of poker entertainment to your friends and then to send them home ASAP so that everybody gets some sleep, I guess the first part of the recipe is a relatively deep starting stack (150BBs?), one rebuy (another 150BBs) for those losing at least 90% (135BBs down) AND one add-on of 100BBs for those loosing at least that amount, up to the 8th level, and of course a very gradual progression of blinds up to that point, in 30-minute levels.
The second part of the recipe (for level 9 and up) would require a ban on add-ons and rebuys, as well as a steep climb in blinds, with the eventual BB reaching the starting stack level of 150BBs - correct?
Wouldn't also turning each LB from then on into an ante (for all) contribute to the game's swift termination?
The concept is clearly a two-gear single table tournament.

 

[justsomedude]

My rule of thumb for home games...

F*ck antes.

/thread

 

[BGinGA]

Being totally inexperienced in tourneys, I would like to ask a side-question with this opportunity (I am not sure it deserves a thread of its own, unless the mods judge differently):
If the aim is to initially provide 4-5 guaranteed hours of poker entertainment to your friends and then to send them home ASAP so that everybody gets some sleep, I guess the first part of the recipe is a relatively deep starting stack (150BBs?), one rebuy (another 150BBs) for those losing at least 90% (135BBs down) AND one add-on of 100BBs for those loosing at least that amount, up to the 8th level, and of course a very gradual progression of blinds up to that point, in 30-minute levels.
The second part of the recipe (for level 9 and up) would require a ban on add-ons and rebuys, as well as a steep climb in blinds, with the eventual BB reaching the starting stack level of 150BBs - correct?
Wouldn't also turning each LB from then on into an ante (for all) contribute to the game's swift termination?
The concept is clearly a two-gear single table tournament.

I do not - and would not -- play in these types of events. You are penalizing those players who played well enough to survive the first 2+ hours by forcing them into a luck-based shove fest for the last two hours....... which makes absolutely no sense to me. And the further they go, the worse it gets. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll spend my poker money elsewhere, where skill is more valued -- and rewarded -- than luck.

I also think that a 100bb add-on for a 150bb starting stack tournament is way too large. Somewhere between 25bb to 75bb is plenty. There should also be no restrictions on who can or cannot purchase the add-on.

 

[Coyote]

Thanks! Point taken.

 

[BGinGA]

I think a much better approach is to 'rush' the early stages of the event, and then slow down things when the remaining field is smaller with bigger stacks. Let 'em play poker when it really counts.

But my preference is a relatively uniform structure that allows adequate and skillful play for the entire duration of the tournament.

 

[doughboy63]

Here's how I recommend handling the ten T2000 league tournaments:

T2000 starting stacks (100bb)
10 x T5
10 x T25
12 x T100
1 x T500
----------------
33 chips

blind schedule (20-minute levels)
lvl sb bb
L1 10 20
L2 15 30
L3 20 40
L4 30 60
L5 40 80
remove T5 chips (requires 1x T500 chip)
L6 50 100
L7 75 150
L8 100 200
L9 150 300
remove T25 chips (requires 5x T500 chips)
L10 200 400
L11 300 600
L12 400 800
L13 500 1000 ***EOT-2K
L14 600 1200
L15 800 1600

With 20-minute levels, the tournaments will typically finish no later than L13, or about 4:20 plus breaks. Using 15-minute levels will slice off about an hour.

So this structure has worked well. I’ve been toying with the idea of killing the T5 and starting with T5000 instead of T2000 starting stacks. It’s obviously just increasing everything by a factor of 2.5 but the blinds just don’t seem to work right even with rounding.

@BGinGA if you have the time would you mind redoing the blinds for T5000 stacks. Typically 10 players and minimal rebuys. 20 min blinds 4 hour tourney? Would really appreciate it.

 

[BGinGA]

So this structure has worked well. I’ve been toying with the idea of killing the T5 and starting with T5000 instead of T2000 starting stacks. It’s obviously just increasing everything by a factor of 2.5 but the blinds just don’t seem to work right even with rounding.

@BGinGA if you have the time would you mind redoing the blinds for T5000 stacks. Typically 10 players and minimal rebuys. 20 min blinds 4 hour tourney? Would really appreciate it.

Shoot me a pm reminder and I'll get to it tomorrow afternoon.