If I was planning on leaving I 100% fold that spot and take the $300 profit and book the W. I'd only rip my stack in if I was sitting on like $140 or less and knew it was going to be my best spot to double/triple up.
Critique Me; Flopped two pair and folded.... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Pinesol13
- Start date
This changes things for me. If you were planning on leaving, you should have tightened up and not played A10 from middle position. Fold pre.
OP
OP
Pinesol13
Flush
good point. I guess when it's getting close to the time I've planned on leaving I use that as a sort of measurement for when I'll walk away.
I know you told us not to give you heat about limping but I really really hate limping in here w/ people behind you. If you wanna play that tight you should just fold pre. I think for a 1/3 game at a local casino, it's totally fine to raise big preflop, hoping to at least get rid of the people behind you, as limp calling in 1/3 live games is just wayyyy too common.
Given the flop the way you played preflop, you should probably raise here. I wouldn't be too worried about a set since everyone limped in. You said he's aggressive but he didnt raise pre. There are also hands you beat on this board. There are straight draws and flush draws. Honestly the main hand I would be worried about here is K J. Thing is, you still have some equity against the hands that have you beat.
Honestly I think the easiest way you can be better at your local 1/3 is to be less scared of getting money in preflop.
Given the flop the way you played preflop, you should probably raise here. I wouldn't be too worried about a set since everyone limped in. You said he's aggressive but he didnt raise pre. There are also hands you beat on this board. There are straight draws and flush draws. Honestly the main hand I would be worried about here is K J. Thing is, you still have some equity against the hands that have you beat.
Honestly I think the easiest way you can be better at your local 1/3 is to be less scared of getting money in preflop.
Legend5555
Full House
There are some big lessons here:
1. Limping is generally bad.
2. If you are going to limp, limping with hands that don't play well multiway is generally bad.
3. Limp-calling with hands that play poorly multiway into bloated pots is really bad.
1. Limping is generally bad.
2. If you are going to limp, limping with hands that don't play well multiway is generally bad.
3. Limp-calling with hands that play poorly multiway into bloated pots is really bad.
I mean, a raise out of the big blind is usually a strong move and sign of pretty big strength... Especially for the 4x / 5x you came up against. That said, I actually think you probably were beat on that flop so I like the fold... But I guess the moral of the story is not to flat pre in middle position with hands like A10 off... Because you'll never truly know where you stand with a board texture like that.
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OP
OP
Pinesol13
Flush
unfortunately no. The villain bet every street and eventually pushed everyone out. Didn't see anyones cards.
Ahhhh, yeah, only just read the OP again and saw that. Edited my reply accordingly.
OP
OP
Pinesol13
Flush
This is a big takeaway for me. I think that was my #1 mistake, playing scared to lose money. I was at a comfortable profit, if I'm not prepared to play a hand with the best strategy I should have just got up 10 minutes earlier than planned and "booked the W".
I didn't play that way the whole session until it got close to my pre determined end time.
DrStrange
4 of a Kind
Preflop: ATo is a fold playing 200bb and in mid-position. I'd call it fold > raise > limp. Hero rarely flops better than a pair. Hero should be thinking of a plan for the post flop play and with a hand like ATo mostly the plan is to fold. The limp/call is making a bad decision worse.
Hero flops "big", top and bottom pair, but the board is super wet. One lesson the learn is this type of holding is more fragile than it looks. Hero might feel like he is crushing AK, but he is more like 2-1 or 3-2. Certainly ahead but not in fist pumping mode just yet. Hero could easily be behind, drawing 1-4 or worse. There are times hero is crushing - say vs QT but these are rather rare.
I do not fault the fold, hero is facing a reverse implied odds situation. I think calling is better than raising. Let's see a turn brick before going to war if that is on Hero's mind. Hero has position on the preflop raiser, let's see how the hand unfolds.
Villain and table reads matter here. Enough so that the decision to fold vs call hinges on this. A table filled with sticky villains and a LAGtard BB is one thing < calling >. An aggressive table plus a TAG BB is a different kettle of fish < folding >.
Why not raise right now? It is the reverse implied odds that make a problem. Hero stands to gain less when he wins and more when he loses. Hero has something like $550 left after he calls with ~$175 in the pot. Maybe hero can take the hand down now and win the $175 for a net profit of $120. But if Hero is crushed he stands the lose the whole $550. I'd rather see a brick on the turn before acting aggressively. I also want to see how the BB plays on the turn, perhaps we'll get a useful clue.
in short, fold preflop at both options. Call or fold on the flop with the table and BB reads guide you. Knowing nothing, I think I call the flop and proceed carefully.
DrStrange
Hero flops "big", top and bottom pair, but the board is super wet. One lesson the learn is this type of holding is more fragile than it looks. Hero might feel like he is crushing AK, but he is more like 2-1 or 3-2. Certainly ahead but not in fist pumping mode just yet. Hero could easily be behind, drawing 1-4 or worse. There are times hero is crushing - say vs QT but these are rather rare.
I do not fault the fold, hero is facing a reverse implied odds situation. I think calling is better than raising. Let's see a turn brick before going to war if that is on Hero's mind. Hero has position on the preflop raiser, let's see how the hand unfolds.
Villain and table reads matter here. Enough so that the decision to fold vs call hinges on this. A table filled with sticky villains and a LAGtard BB is one thing < calling >. An aggressive table plus a TAG BB is a different kettle of fish < folding >.
Why not raise right now? It is the reverse implied odds that make a problem. Hero stands to gain less when he wins and more when he loses. Hero has something like $550 left after he calls with ~$175 in the pot. Maybe hero can take the hand down now and win the $175 for a net profit of $120. But if Hero is crushed he stands the lose the whole $550. I'd rather see a brick on the turn before acting aggressively. I also want to see how the BB plays on the turn, perhaps we'll get a useful clue.
in short, fold preflop at both options. Call or fold on the flop with the table and BB reads guide you. Knowing nothing, I think I call the flop and proceed carefully.
DrStrange
Sets seem unlikely here. Your hand and the board block TT and AA hard. The limpers are unlikely to have AA or QQ, because they would have (or at least should have) re-raised the squeezer pre.
The squeezer could in theory have QQ, but you are blocking some of the AQ. You are in good shape vs KK as well as KQ, QJ, J9, etc. unless he also has a flush draw. His range pre should have way more suited aces/pocket pairs/maybe even some lower suited connectors than AA, QQ, KJ or AQ which have you crushed.
Next question is, if he has a set or the made straight, is he really betting a size likely to help worse hands fold? Maybe, at 1/3. He may be afraid of the flush draw. But again, he has a lot more flush draws than made monsters at this point.
You’re right that having players yet to act makes this a little more risky... If you call, you’re hoping that it for the flop, then hoping for a brick on the turn or to make a boat (in which case you are delighted to be multiway, with lots of draws hanging out there).
Or he could just be cbetting AK/AJ which has top pair with a gunshot. Or cbetting much worse, just because he read in some book you should cbet a lot (ignoring that it’s multiway).
So I’d have called and seen what developed. Often the result when you push back against a c-better is it checks through on the turn, so you’d only have one more big decision on the river.
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P.S. This also seems like a rare situation on the flop where card removal might actually matter. There were a zillion limpers pre, you were multiway to the flop, the squeezer c-bet, and already got a caller strongly suggests a lot of Broadway cards are in play.
Maybe one of those preflop limpers had 88 or worse, and was just set-mining. But there rest were likely to have at least one Broadway card. So while it might seem like there are a ton of bad turns which could come, 2-9 offsuit might make up a lot of what remains in the stub.
Maybe one of those preflop limpers had 88 or worse, and was just set-mining. But there rest were likely to have at least one Broadway card. So while it might seem like there are a ton of bad turns which could come, 2-9 offsuit might make up a lot of what remains in the stub.
MrCatPants
Full House
Both of them though? And with other actors getting good pot odds from behind? I just would worry you'd end up drawing against the world, and quite possibly already behind as well.
I could easily see one of them having the flush draw and the other TPTK. Or another scenario with a similar combination of promise/problems.
Sure, but say you’re up against both KJ (made nut straight) and a nut flush draw, you still have outs to a boat, and the price is pretty good with the caller already in. It would suck if someone behind re-raised, but that allows you go get away from it for only $40. I’d hang on for dear life and see what comes.
Raise>Fold>Call Pre-Flop
I agree with @DrStrange 's analysis on the flop. BB is making a value bet after his pre-flop raise to get more information from and get other players out of the hand. Keep in mind BB's range is wide given his late position pre-flop. With deep stacks, I call this flop and see a turn. If another Queen or Diamond comes on the turn, GTFO and pack up your winnings. On a brick of a turn, I re-raise/bet big to try and buy the pot depending on BB's action.
OP stands to win a little less but have better chances of scooping betting on the brick turn rather than losing more to win a bit more by raising the flop.
I agree with @DrStrange 's analysis on the flop. BB is making a value bet after his pre-flop raise to get more information from and get other players out of the hand. Keep in mind BB's range is wide given his late position pre-flop. With deep stacks, I call this flop and see a turn. If another Queen or Diamond comes on the turn, GTFO and pack up your winnings. On a brick of a turn, I re-raise/bet big to try and buy the pot depending on BB's action.
OP stands to win a little less but have better chances of scooping betting on the brick turn rather than losing more to win a bit more by raising the flop.
Kimurasays
Sitting Out
Either a reraise or a fold seems fine here.
grebe
Full House
This hand is a dumpster fire and it all started with the preflop limp (or that you should have got up from the table when you were done playing). You can't ignore it, it's what put you in the post flop debacle. Shit, top two, what do you want out of A10? You have all other ace combos demolished....but you dont know if he has those, because you didnt raise preflop...oh yeah. KJ??? Who knows? You also gave up control of the pot when you limp/called. No use in analyzing any further, because it cant be fixed playing weakly with 5 other hands. Fold seems best as played, although I would have stacked off with top two....but he would have had to call my preflop raise....so it comes back to that.
Ugh. This has me tilted.
Ugh. This has me tilted.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
Yeah I have to tell you the truth if you are first in from MP you should almost never be limping. If it's worth playing,raise. That said, ATo isn't an automatic raising hand to me and if you are going to fold it on an AQT flop, why play it in the first place?
If there was a limp train going, I don't hate the idea of limping along either if you have a pretty solid read the players acting after you are passive.
As played hero needs to raise this flop, it's hard to see sets given the action and we block AA and TT to one combo each. We partially block AQ. Sure KJ could be out there, but so is AK or AJ, flush draws.
I only fault the limp because hero is first in the pot. I wouldn't hate a fold pre if hero wants to have a tight strategy. But not continuing on this flop is a mistake.
If there was a limp train going, I don't hate the idea of limping along either if you have a pretty solid read the players acting after you are passive.
As played hero needs to raise this flop, it's hard to see sets given the action and we block AA and TT to one combo each. We partially block AQ. Sure KJ could be out there, but so is AK or AJ, flush draws.
I only fault the limp because hero is first in the pot. I wouldn't hate a fold pre if hero wants to have a tight strategy. But not continuing on this flop is a mistake.
Exactly. If you think you can outplay people postflop, you should be raising that hand preflop. Just fold otherwise.
All good points in here but something I haven’t seen discussed is your overall bankroll/reasons for playing poker. If you are taking a shot at 1/3 (whether as a recreational player or as a player who plays poker to provide for his family) and can’t afford to lose 3-4 buy ins before being broke , then I would say your play here makes sense. No reason to play a huge pot with someone who has you covered if you plan on leaving in a few minutes and have already secured a significant win.
On the flip side, if 1/3 is your usual game and you are properly bankrolled for it then deciding to play passively and chop out early when you secure a win is a recipe for a losing player in the long term. The goal is to maximize your wins when you are playing good and minimize your losses when you are playing bad so even if you lose more times than you win, your earnings from your winning sessions will outweigh your losses from your losing sessions.
On the flip side, if 1/3 is your usual game and you are properly bankrolled for it then deciding to play passively and chop out early when you secure a win is a recipe for a losing player in the long term. The goal is to maximize your wins when you are playing good and minimize your losses when you are playing bad so even if you lose more times than you win, your earnings from your winning sessions will outweigh your losses from your losing sessions.
OP
OP
Pinesol13
Flush
Thank you to everyone who gave their feedback. I really appreciate it. A lot of good lessons learned.
The number one problem was playing from a mindset of "don't lose all your profit on the last couple of hands". Every mistake along the way was a product of that. So I either need to learn to leave the table earlier than planned if I feel that paranoia coming on, or have the balls to continue to play properly when I have a nice profit near the end.
The number one problem was playing from a mindset of "don't lose all your profit on the last couple of hands". Every mistake along the way was a product of that. So I either need to learn to leave the table earlier than planned if I feel that paranoia coming on, or have the balls to continue to play properly when I have a nice profit near the end.
OP
OP
Pinesol13
Flush
I'm just playing recreationally. My usual game is 25¢/50¢ cash game with friends. We occasionally play a $1/$2 game. I like to go to the casino a couple times a month to play the $1/$3. If I lost 3-4 buy-ins it wouldn't put me in a terrible spot financially
So with that in mind, the way you should be judging your play after those sessions is within the framework of “I’m going to the casino a few times a month to have fun, secure a win if possible, and get comfortable playing higher stakes” and not with the mindset of “I need to play perfect poker, maximize my winning sessions, and scrutinize every play I make.” Accept that you are going to be outplayed and be put in spots where you are not going to be willing to call/raise where you normally would in your .25/.50 game.
Frogzilla
4 of a Kind
I’m probably calling here but don’t hate a fold. ATo doesn’t play well which is why I don’t ever have it here in MP. Raising for value is out of the question, we are easily behind the ranges that would call our raise...Most people can fold AJ on this board and there aren’t that many flush draws that don’t have an A or a T.
WedgeRock
Royal Flush
But what if he could hit a dream flop like ATx for cheap?
1A25R
Flush
So... you called a raise pre-flop with AT, hit 2 pairs in the flop, then fold....
What did you expect ? To hit a full house on the flop ??
That's tight
What did you expect ? To hit a full house on the flop ??
That's tight
tabletalker7
Full House
If you were leaving in ten minutes and happy with the profits you made thus far, then why are you playing A-10 off at all? Whenever I am in this situation I am a WHOLE LOT tighter than that.
Good fold every time. Just too many cards out there to give up all your chips. That many people in the hand calling preflop raises makes two pair the last thing you want to see.
Ok. Let me start by saying a couple of things; I'm fairly confident in saying that I'm not a great poker player
I was playing a $1/$3 cash game at a local casino recently and I'm curious to know what others would have done in this hand.
I'm in middle position with. Pre-flop action was everyone limped in, including me, got around to the big blind and he raised. I can't remember if he raised to $12 or $15. Four players call and we see the flop.
Side note: I'm assuming I'm going to get some heat for limping in with A 10 but for the time being please do your best to ignore that part.
Flop comes
Big blind bets $40, guy next to him calls, it's on me and I think for a minute and fold.
So this was my thought process: One player already called, two more are behind me. If one or both of them call I'm facing 3-4 players; how often will two pair end up being good on this board against that many players? There are several hands that have me beat ( AQ, KJ, any set ) and if a J or K ( or 9...?) or any diamond come on the turn or river I assume I'm beat as well.
One player behind me folded, another called. Big blind bet again on the turn, but I don't remember how much. One player folded. He bet again on the river and the last player folded so I didn't get to see anyones cards. I hate to say it but I don't remember what the turn and river cards were, I think I was too busy hating on myself in my head.
View attachment 400136
So what do you think? Super nitty, or a decent fold in some spots?
I appreciate the help!
OP
OP
Pinesol13
Flush
So... you called a raise pre-flop with AT, hit 2 pairs in the flop, then fold....
What did you expect ? To hit a full house on the flop ??
That's tight
yeeeaaah.....I know
Obviously it's impossible to know what I would've done in a slightly different situation. But I do wonder how I would've reacted if the board came out a rainbow, or if instead of a Queen it was A 10 6. The fact that there was a flush draw, a straight on the board, a big bet and a call in front of me plus two players to act behind me all added up to me chickening out.
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