CPC General discussion thread (3 Viewers)

[Poker Zombie]

t’s very interesting, but I don’t think $4-$6K is a lot for product R&D.

But who does the R&D?

CPC doesn't make the color dyes, they buy it. Presumably from a company that makes dyes for various purposes (clay, plastics, fiberglass, whatever). So assuming they already tried with "Yellow" (It is one of the most common colors) somewhere over the past 80 years, they failed to find an existing dye that works and is still an acceptable yellow when complete.

So perhaps you want to take the fight to the dye manufacturer. Have them experiment with new dyes, then bounce it over to CPC to see if it will mix with their process, not fade, not change color under heating/pressing, and the host of other reasons that David has explained ad nauseum. Also, keep in mind that both CPC and the dye maker have to put off whatever other projects - also keeping in mind that CPC already has a 6-month lead time on some molds, not to mention whatever delay will be imposed by the move.

I for one simply hope the move goes as planned. This is irreplaceable machinery getting hauled across the US. This does not feel like the time to be worried about a new color.

 

[TheBigTater]

Super easy to suggest large amounts of money/time be spent for new shiny stuff when it's not your money/time to be invested, on top of all of the initial move/startup investments.

People think new colors is as easy as plugging in some color combos and pressing the button, snap.....

 

[Machine]

on top of all of the initial move/startup investments.

Great point, it will take time to recover just the moving costs, not to mention the initial investment, most ppl want to break even before investing in R&D or new products.

I also think there are people who will be skiddish due to past performance; I wouldn't be, I believe that is why David has created this hand off process, and will hopefully help in the successful transition and continued custom clays

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

One thing I would like to see, that could be worked on right now, is adding Ewing to the Chip Design Tool.

 

[Machine]

One thing I would like to see, that could be worked on right now, is adding Ewing to the Chip Design Tool.

didn't J5 do the dev on that? has anyone seen him recently?

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

didn't J5 do the dev on that? has anyone seen him recently?

He did. I've had a lot of contact with him in the past, but have not spoken to him recently. Didn't figure it was my place to reach out to him on this.

 

[maxim_666666]

First, they need to change the website to be able to sell chips individually. As is done everywhere.

 

[FestiveKnight]

Great point, it will take time to recover just the moving costs, not to mention the initial investment, most ppl want to break even before investing in R&D or new products.

I also think there are people who will be skiddish due to past performance; I wouldn't be, I believe that is why David has created this hand off process, and will hopefully help in the successful transition and continued custom clays

I don’t disagree, but it could also be set that with a high percent of business coming from return customers something new and exciting could accelerate recouping investment.

Presumably the new owner is sophisticated and will do the math. Investing more capital should always be considered and can always be forecast and risk adjusted.

 

[cpac54]

didn't J5 do the dev on that? has anyone seen him recently?

A bunch of people, myself included, were trying to get a hold of John in the Fall, but with no luck. Would love to hear news on him if someone has any - hopefully he’s doing ok.

 

[Taghkanic]

So perhaps you want to take the fight to the dye manufacturer.

Good idea. If they want the business, they’ll make it work.

Also, keep in mind that both CPC and the dye maker have to put off whatever other projects - also keeping in mind that CPC already has a 6-month lead time on some molds, not to mention whatever delay will be imposed by the move.

Given that (apparently) it is nearly impossible and wildly expensive to develop or change anything, it seems like a miracle that there are any clay poker chips with any molds and any colors at all.

I am mystified how any of the famous poker chip developers in the 20th century ever managed to create any compression molded clays at all, let alone in multiple colors.

Then again I am using ivory and scrimshaw in my game, so.

 

[Taghkanic]

Super easy to suggest large amounts of money/time be spent for new shiny stuff when it's not your money/time to be invested, on top of all of the initial move/startup investments.

Is $5-$6K a large amount of money for the [checks notes] only company in the world offering compression molded clays to the public? I hope not, because if so the new owner will be folding up shop in short order.

I’m not a uniquely-positioned corporation, but I just bought a new $5-6K zeroturn mower.

It is a sensible investment because (a) I mow about 35 acres constantly 5-6 months of the year, and (b) the mower should last a long time, making the annual cost quite low compared to other options—such as hiring someone else with the equipment to come to my place more than a dozen times annually.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Is $5-$6K a large amount of money for the [checks notes] only company in the world offering compression molded clays to the public? I hope not, because if so the new owner will be folding up shop in short order.

I’m not a uniquely-positioned corporation, but I just bought a new $5-6K zeroturn mower.

It is a sensible investment because (a) I mow about 35 acres constantly 5-6 months of the year, and (b) the mower should last a long time, making the annual cost quite low compared to other options—such as hiring someone else with the equipment to come to my place more than a dozen times annually.

You make a good point. Why spend any money developing a new color when you are "the [checks notes] only company in the world offering compression molded clays to the public?"

Henry Ford famously said, "You can have the Model T in any color you like, as long as it's black". You can have clay chips in any shade of yellow you like, as long as its Sandstone-Canary, Brown mustard Yellow, Dayglo Yellow, or Saturn.

 

[toothpic]

You make a good point. Why spend any money developing a new color when you are "the [checks notes] only company in the world offering compression molded clays to the public?"

Henry Ford famously said, "You can have the Model T in any color you like, as long as it's black". You can have clay chips in any shade of yellow you like, as long as its Sandstone-Canary, Brown mustard Yellow, Dayglo Yellow, or Saturn.

It's an ok way to sell from the beginning, but in the long run is it sustainable?

More of the right color choices would lead to more sales I would think. Big question is if the investment is going to be worth the return. A nice yellow would definitely get another purchase from me.

 

[Poker Zombie]

It's an ok way to sell from the beginning, but in the long run is it sustainable?

More of the right color choices would lead to more sales I would think. Big question is if the investment is going to be worth the return. A nice yellow would definitely get another purchase from me.

I guess only David could hazard a guess. The last new colors came out in 2013. Did that move the needle? Did the R&D outpace the costs? David seemed unwilling (at best) to experiment further with colors, instead adding new spot patterns (both half-moons and publishing higher-level patterns*), as well as the two crown molds.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be nice to have. Perhaps CPC_Mike will have more of a mad-scientist vibe or a chemistry background and we'll get new colors. But for the love of Pete, some of the requests sound like the demands of impetulant children. I'm surprised that with CPC Maine closing up, that there aren't members demanding one of CPC Maine's Oompa-Loompas.

*Does anyone remember if 1/2 pies and 1/4 pies also came out under David's Tenure?

 

[Taghkanic]

It's an ok way to sell from the beginning, but in the long run is it sustainable?

More of the right color choices would lead to more sales I would think. Big question is if the investment is going to be worth the return. A nice yellow would definitely get another purchase from me.

We’re assuming that the new owner wants/needs/insists that this business be profitable.

It might instead be more of a labor of love, or a tax write-off, or a vanity project.

I speculate, because buying this type of highly-specialized (and by many beloved) business is not a run-of-the-mill investment.

But maybe he will want it to make money even if he doesn’t really need more.

 

[toothpic]

We’re assuming that the new owner wants/needs/insists that this business be profitable.

It might instead be more of a labor of love, or a tax write-off, or a vanity project.

Or maybe he wants it to make money even if he doesn’t really need more.

Right. Do they want more business? Do they want to expand? Do they want to cater to what the general chipping public wants?

Definitely not our questions to answer but we can state our wants and desires if it helps drive those decisions. Take them or leave them, it's up to the business owner.

Sure CPC is the only compression clay custom chip maker offering the service to the general public. Maybe it will stay that way but maybe it won't. Competition drives innovation and the lack of.. well you get the picture.

 

[JMC9389]

I guess only David could hazard a guess. The last new colors came out in 2013. Did that move the needle? Did the R&D outpace the costs? David seemed unwilling (at best) to experiment further with colors, instead adding new spot patterns (both half-moons and publishing higher-level patterns*), as well as the two crown molds.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be nice to have. Perhaps CPC_Mike will have more of a mad-scientist vibe or a chemistry background and we'll get new colors. But for the love of Pete, some of the requests sound like the demands of impetulant children. I'm surprised that with CPC Maine closing up, that there aren't members demanding one of CPC Maine's Oompa-Loompas.

*Does anyone remember if 1/2 pies and 1/4 pies also came out under David's Tenure?

I have to agree with this.

FFS, even GPI is scaling back on and retiring spot patterns that if some are to be believed will never be made again.

I actually think that a nicer blue in between DG Peacock and Light Blue and a more sherbet-ey green are much more of a need than a "better yellow", but I digress.

 

[LionPaladin88]

I have had the experience of renovating or building several houses. In the process I have noticed that there are two main types of contractors/subs.

The first type reacts to every plan and idea with a long spiel about how it is going to be soooo hard, soooo expensive, wiping their brow, wringing their hands… I don’t know if this is doable.

The second type says, Yeah, we’ll figure that out, it’s an interesting challenge, it’ll look really cool—and gets right down to it.

I’m interested to see what type of “contractor” the new guy is.

i have also noticed this as well with people saying the same thing about custom poker shapes, and how its going to be "so expensive". like one person said earlier up the post thread here would be going in the hole 6 figures...

FIRST OFF... if you are paying a 6 figure wage for an injection mold.... you are getting ripped off in my opinion. i have a friend with a CNC router who regularly makes detailed injection molds for companies and doesn't charge more then 5 to 800 bucks, per mold. which these days its literally nothing. i mean a person can buy compressed carbon graphite molds for 100 to 350 bucks on etsy.

so i refuse to believe that "its so expensive" like so many people on here say

 

[ekricket]

i have also noticed this as well with people saying the same thing about custom poker shapes, and how its going to be "so expensive". like one person said earlier up the post thread here would be going in the hole 6 figures...

FIRST OFF... if you are paying a 6 figure wage for an injection mold.... you are getting ripped off in my opinion. i have a friend with a CNC router who regularly makes detailed injection molds for companies and doesn't charge more then 5 to 800 bucks, per mold. which these days its literally nothing. i mean a person can buy compressed carbon graphite molds for 100 to 350 bucks on etsy.

so i refuse to believe that "its so expensive" like so many people on here say

Not being snarky, but I’m sure that if you were to buy one and provide it to them they would probably use it.

 

[krafticus]

Here we go again. We’ve got experts saying it can’t be done … and yet the “people” know more than the experts. Funny if you ask me.

 

[TheBigTater]

Sounds like a lot of poster here should be able to open a compression clay manufacturing business for little or next to nothing and put GPI & CPC right out of business with their chip business savvy.

Of course they can do it with somebody else's money.

 

[toothpic]

Can't be done or won't be done because it's not worthwhile?

 

[Felt_Lizard]

Does anyone remember if 1/2 pies and 1/4 pies also came out under David's Tenure?

Nevermind, I don't remember. But I have a lot of them!

 

[krafticus]

Can't be done or won't be done because it's not worthwhile?

With time and money, everything is possible. Without knowledge of how CPC ACTUALLY works though, I'd say they are the experts and if they say it can't be done, it can't. Maybe if they invest a sh!t-ton of cash into it, they can, and then when base chips cost $5+ to recoup those costs, everyone bitches about that.

So, I say, no, it can't be done.

 

[AlbinoDragon]

*Does anyone remember if 1/2 pies and 1/4 pies also came out under David's Tenure?

Half-pies came out under Jim B at ASM Maine. I got half-pies for my Lounge H-mold customs not terribly long after Jim announced them as being available.

I have an email from October of 2008 asking about (and getting an OK) for a small order of quarter pies at that time, so that would have also been ASM-Maine.

 

[Taghkanic]

Here we go again. We’ve got experts saying it can’t be done … and yet the “people” know more than the experts. Funny if you ask me.

One of the regs in my game is a very successful retired engineer who made and commissioned a zillion different molds, before selling his business for a pretty penny. His reaction to the claimed price of a new mold was [insert scoffing sound].

 

[Taghkanic]

Sounds like a lot of poster here should be able to open a compression clay manufacturing business for little or next to nothing and put GPI & CPC right out of business with their chip business savvy.

Why completely reinvent the wheel when there is a business which already has 98% of what is needed, and does a nice job at it, but may be a bit hidebound or stuck in the mud (so much so that they sold it)?

Looking forward to seeing what the new owner does.

 

[PlaidDragon]

How expensive is it to develop a new color....?

If you have to ask, you can't afford it.

 

[maxim_666666]

One of the regs in my game is a very successful retired engineer who made and commissioned a zillion different molds, before selling his business for a pretty penny. His reaction to the claimed price of a new mold was [insert scoffing sound].

You are a little confused. It is one thing when your friend designs it in 3D, inserts a piece of raw metal into the machine and presses a button, and gives it to the customer, and quite another when you need to get the same part, but with a certain heat treatment, where the correct hardness will be required in certain places, while keeping the core soft, so that the form does not crack under the load. In addition, these forms must maintain their exact geometric parameters, which is often impossible after hardening ... and you will have to resort to post-processing. As soon as you set these conditions to your friend, then instead of a smile, he will start adding zeros to the cost of the order.
If his company is in principle capable of doing something like this ...
Go to a hardware store and look at the tools. Prices for simple wrenches can differ several times ..
And there is a reason for this...

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

A bunch of people, myself included, were trying to get a hold of John in the Fall, but with no luck. Would love to hear news on him if someone has any - hopefully he’s doing ok.

I hope this isn't going to result in bad news. I know he has had some health issues. I was working with John on some projects two years ago that got shelved. I'm close to the point of bringing these back to life, so I will email him, and report back on if I get a reply.