CPC General discussion thread

David Spragg

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Use this thread if you want to ask or debate specific CPC marketplace related things to keep them in the right forum. If an item is likely to warrant its own thread, email me to start it for you.
 

Ben

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With recent discussions involving possible group buys and/or very large individual orders, I have found myself wondering more than once if any quantity discounts may be possible? If so, would they apply to the order as a whole or only to individual chips meeting a certain quantity?
 

Manz

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Hi David,

I've seen that you have updated the website prices for the new highest edgespot levels. I'm curious to see what would be a level 10 or level 11? I mean, if the 8A14 is a level 6, how do you do for the level 11? V12 with diamonds? :D

(i'm planning a custom set for a near future with every kind of fancy edgespot, if it's possible, so my mind is getting really wet with all those new options)
 

David Spragg

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With recent discussions involving possible group buys and/or very large individual orders, I have found myself wondering more than once if any quantity discounts may be possible? If so, would they apply to the order as a whole or only to individual chips meeting a certain quantity?
Due to the handmade nature of our clay chips, and the fact they can only be pressed 15-25 at a time, there is no economy of scale unless we were making 10,000 and up of the same chip. All the prices in the table have been calculated based on the exact time we expect them to take to manufacture with the lowest margin possible just to recoup our investment over quite a few years.

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Hi David,

I've seen that you have updated the website prices for the new highest edgespot levels. I'm curious to see what would be a level 10 or level 11? I mean, if the 8A14 is a level 6, how do you do for the level 11? V12 with diamonds? :D

(i'm planning a custom set for a near future with every kind of fancy edgespot, if it's possible, so my mind is getting really wet with all those new options)
All the higher level edge spots are those where double or even triple punching is required, which in itself obviously creates a higher level of reject than a regular pattern.
I don't want to show these patterns until we have tried and tested them with samples (which we don't have time for right now) as some have not been done for many years or not at all.

However, the highest levels are not necessarily the fanciest. It is just a factor of the labor involved and potential wastage. Here are mock ups of 6 variations of 1/8 spot which would appear to be relatively simple. The red number is the spot level. Now in these examples the amount of extra work probably is not apparent without an explanation.
The punches can only create 3, or 3 pairs of 1/8 in one pass. 1/8 are notoriously difficult to work with at the best of times and cause a lot of rejects (hence the levels for regular 1/8). It is also difficult and much more time consuming to handle the tiny pieces when assembling them.
You should be able to understand therefore how hard it is to double punch just the 618 when you have to try and hand align the chip the second time round to get the spacing correct and then slowly punch one at a time.
Then, to jump to the 6QADS18 you add a whole load of other process differences. The gap between the two spots in a pair is small. If you punched and punched again with these, either the first holes close up or the small prongs break up or deform. Therefore you have to make a 3ADS and repress it to bind the first 6 spots into place before doing the repunching. Not only do you have to be very careful to insert the correct color spots in order both times round but there is an added factor which many probably don't appreciate about working with multiple color spots. For some chemical reason, the different dyes alter the melting temperature of the clay, even though they are only a tiny part of a formula which basically remains the same. The spots have to be warmed up very slightly so they can be pushed into the holes (all done 100% by hand). Just for the purpose of explanation, say that white clay softens slightly at 50 degrees and melts at 80 degrees, but black does not soften until 80 degrees, that means you have to do the two colors separately. That adds a good percentage to the labor. On larger size spots the temperature required is much closer to each other so you can get away with doing it at the same time.
While Ive only explained parts of the process hopefully people can see why there is a such a difference in spot levels.

spotsnew4.jpg
 

David Spragg

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would you currently be able to produce a 6A18 is smaller quantities for a set? say like 20 chips etc?
I have to take it in context of the order as a whole. An order often contains a smaller quantity of the highest denom as long as the overall averages 100 or more per chip. Depending on the mold, for complex ones I may have to stipulate 25 or 30, because we would have to make 2 pressings x 20 to allow for rejects and if you only want 20 we are trashing the remainder and wasting labor.
 

Manz

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Really interesting David, thank you for the insight!.

One last question about special edgespot. Are any of these possible? 4T316, 4ADS318 and 6AD18/6AD16 (i mean each pair without being splitted)
 

Mr Tree

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Now I know exactly how much a pain in the ass my 6QADS18 commemorative chip is. [emoji33]
 

David Spragg

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Really interesting David, thank you for the insight!.

One last question about special edgespot. Are any of these possible? 4T316, 4ADS318 and 6AD18/6AD16 (i mean each pair without being splitted)
There is only one 9/16 punch (the 3 spot) so only 3T316 is possible.
I'm not sure what you mean by the others without a picture.

The basic spot designs are fixed because they each require unique equipment and that is all that exists. All other combos are effectively double punchings of those.
 

beaver

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What is the feasibility of new punches for some of these spots that could be the more popular ones (618 and 818) for example. At some point the cost of a new punch would end up cheaper then all the labor and wastage involved in double or triple punching.
 

David Spragg

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What is the feasibility of new punches for some of these spots that could be the more popular ones (618 and 818) for example. At some point the cost of a new punch would end up cheaper then all the labor and wastage involved in double or triple punching.
The reason no punch exists on the 1/8 varieties with more than 3 prongs is that even with hardened steel the pins are just not strong enough to take the enormous pressure required without bending.
There used to be a 418 punch, it broke every time. All prongs have to make contact with the chip surface at precisely the same time to avoid damage. Obviously it is the chip itself which stresses to allow that to happen, but consider this simple analogy - a chair with 4 or more legs will wobble if any legs are longer or shorter than the rest - a chair with 3 legs can't wobble.

There were other patterns where new punches could have been made but the demand just does not justify it. People would expect the chips to be cheaper. The punches are old style, they have to operate in 50 year old presses. The cost of a new one may take 10,000 chips to pay back. Most spots L5 and above have never been made in that quantity in the lifetime of CPC/ASM/Burt Co.
 

Manz

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The last two edgespots were these (i don't know if the nomenclature was right) under 16 or 18 size, just asking.

 

Poker Zombie

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Thanks for the manufacturing explanations. I have known for some time that there was a lot of work involved. ASM Vegas confirmed that the work was difficult. Then I made cookies. Chocolate chip cookies that looked sorta like 3v12s. The process of hand shaping the dough to fit the exact cutouts....
I thought "there has to be an easier way". Clearly there is not.

Though you probably have less of an issue with eating raw clay...
 

David Spragg

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Thanks for the manufacturing explanations. I have known for some time that there was a lot of work involved. ASM Vegas confirmed that the work was difficult. Then I made cookies. Chocolate chip cookies that looked sorta like 3v12s. The process of hand shaping the dough to fit the exact cutouts....
I thought "there has to be an easier way". Clearly there is not.

Though you probably have less of an issue with eating raw clay...
As you probably know it is not a dissimilar process to you trying to make the cookies. Then when you think you have it right, you bake the cookies (or press the chips) and they change shape :(

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The last two edgespots were these (i don't know if the nomenclature was right) under 16 or 18 size, just asking.

The left one is not possible for us.
The right one involves putting 2 x 1/8 spots in each 1/4 hole. Possible as similar things have been done. Would need to work out a custom price on that to see where it fits in the patterns. My guess at first glance is L7.
 

Toonexile

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There were other patterns where new punches could have been made but the demand just does not justify it. People would expect the chips to be cheaper. The punches are old style, they have to operate in 50 year old presses. The cost of a new one may take 10,000 chips to pay back. Most spots L5 and above have never been made in that quantity in the lifetime of CPC/ASM/Burt Co.
If we hadn't guessed already, I think this spells out to everyone just what sort of market you are operating in and that investing in costly equipment just isn't feasible a lot of the time.
 

Redbelly

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Thank you David for expanding on what is possible and the in-depth explanations!

It's heaven for us all to see "new" things being done!

You have added a whole new complexity to my next project and, while I am amazingly grateful for all the possibilities, I'm not sure if I'm happy or depressed over the amount of extra time it's going to take to figure it all out! GREAT STUFF![emoji41]
 

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The left one is not possible for us.
The right one involves putting 2 x 1/8 spots in each 1/4 hole. Possible as similar things have been done. Would need to work out a custom price on that to see where it fits in the patterns. My guess at first glance is L7.
I would love the one on the left for my hundo. Almost worth getting 10,000 chips made haha.
 

abby99

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David, thank you so much for sharing all this information. You've been incredibly generous with your time.
 

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Looks like I've opened a can of worms for you David sorry ;)

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The left one is not possible for us.
The right one involves putting 2 x 1/8 spots in each 1/4 hole. Possible as similar things have been done. Would need to work out a custom price on that to see where it fits in the patterns. My guess at first glance is L7.
Also if I had enough cash and it was possible I would get this spot pattern for my 1000 chip in a heartbeat.
 

Jhoov2412

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I know it was asked on the other site but I never saw if there was an update as to if the E&C mold would become available again.

I am also curious if there are any other molds that may be coming in the future?
 

David Spragg

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I know it was asked on the other site but I never saw if there was an update as to if the E&C mold would become available again.

I am also curious if there are any other molds that may be coming in the future?
Yes, I answered it. E&C was never owned by ASM, it was leased and returned to its owners who decided not to loan it out again.
All other molds not listed have been retired. I listed all those we have that may or may not be usable.

PS - I will raise the question again with the E & C owners at some point but they were a bit miffed over the way ASM Vegas dealt with them. I will leave it at that :)
 
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PatTheCat

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Yes, I answered it. E&C was never owned by ASM, it was leased and returned to its owners who decided not to loan it out again.
PS - I will raise the question again with the E & C owners at some point but they were a bit miffed over the way ASM Vegas dealt with them. I will leave it at that :)
Fingers crossed.
Do you have any idea of pricing for chips on this mold, if it will ever become available again? Was it harder/easier to produce chips with this mold compared to others?
 

David Spragg

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Fingers crossed.
Do you have any idea of pricing for chips on this mold, if it will ever become available again? Was it harder/easier to produce chips with this mold compared to others?
I have no idea. Its not just how hard or easy it is to make chips, the cost of the lease affects the price.
We could be talking years anyway, I wouldn't bother thinking about it.
 

AlbinoDragon

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David,

What is the state of the 334 punch and possible chips with it? A couple chips here (well, over at Old Blue) were made with that spot and it's half on my mind for something I might want to do.

Just thinking out loud here, but figured others might be curious too.

Also, thanks for the info on the x18 spots (418, 618, etc.). I had been batting around a 6a18 set, but knowing how much a pain they are (and that they would be level 9) put the brakes on that in a hurry! (I had some other thoughts/questions but those are basically answered with your other replies here).
 

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Hey David, With paulson discontinuing home sets, I was thinking this might be a good time (maybe a year or so) for CPC to create and mass market a clay home poker set. What do you think , or has that thought occurred to you ??
 

Poker Zombie

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Just out of curiosity, what type of entity owns the E&C? Is it an individual (like someone that scored it in a manner similar to RedBelly's tale), is it an actual chip manufacturer that no longer produces for the home market, or something completely different?
 

David Spragg

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David,

What is the state of the 334 punch and possible chips with it? A couple chips here (well, over at Old Blue) were made with that spot and it's half on my mind for something I might want to do.

Just thinking out loud here, but figured others might be curious too.

Also, thanks for the info on the x18 spots (418, 618, etc.). I had been batting around a 6a18 set, but knowing how much a pain they are (and that they would be level 9) put the brakes on that in a hurry! (I had some other thoughts/questions but those are basically answered with your other replies here).
That punch was amongst equipment 'retired' prior to ASM Vegas. Retired items were donated to a museum so they are not things I can magically resurrect :)

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Hey David, With paulson discontinuing home sets, I was thinking this might be a good time (maybe a year or so) for CPC to create and mass market a clay home poker set. What do you think , or has that thought occurred to you ??
Actually it is not really practical at all. One of the reasons Paulson stopped was that even with their huge economies of scale (they have 250 presses) and cheap labor in Mexico, they were making a loss on these and it was slowing them down on casino orders.
To produce any sort of volume of inventory to allow us to mass market, we would have to stop all other production while we trained new labor for weeks and then made the chips which might sit on the shelf forever. Even then, because of the process involved, we can't make them any cheaper than we do customs right now.
I am thinking about stock designs which would be made to order, but not certain of the value of that either.
 

ChipEnvy

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I know this has been discussed before, but I can't remember the answer and think it would be good to document here. I understand the Roman mold is damaged. Is it beyond repair, and if not any ETA or what is the status of that mold?

Thanks!
 
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