Chip Value Database (2 Viewers)

[BGinGA]

I don't understand why anyone would think less information is helpful.

Bottom line, it's not. Alternatively, more information isn't un-helpful, either. Didn't stop the witch-hunters from hating on it, though.

 

[12thMan]

*snip*

Can't say I agree with it 100%, still voting cool, but I can appreciate the reasoning, definitely solid.

 

[bergs]

I just need to quickly clear up a couple things...

@12thMan - I actually am a dickhead.
@Rainmaintrail - I actually did mean a nativity of new hobbyists. A little wooden stable with small representations of prominent PCF members clucking over Sun Fly chips. So get off my jock.
@Ssanel - you hit it on the head...

I'm all for more accurate, timely, impartial information. I'm not for inaccurate, manipulated, or outdated information.

Here's my problem with this project, just for clarity, as a chip hobbyist...I've said it before and I'll say it again...the worst kind of documentation is inaccurate documentation, because it represents itself as authoritative and causes bad/incorrect decisions as people trust it and use it to make decisions.

No pricing tool for non-rare chips will ever be completely accurate. There will be private sales that won't be reported and/or eligible for screen-scraping, and people will overpay (relative to recent historical prevailing prices) for chips to complete their particular set.

The "live catalog" likely won't ever become publicly available (because I think Rainman wants to make money off it, but don't get me started about that). If it ever does become available, I'll make a note of this post and will refer people here when they start complaining that a) people are manipulating the "live catalog" to meet their specific selling needs, and/or b) people start complaining that seller X is charging too much for his chips per catalog entry Y.

How do I think this should work? Glad you asked. Hobbyists, you know, hobby. They do research to figure out what a fair selling or buying price is via looking at recent sales, asking other members, and digging into information not controlled by a single 3rd party. Most of the people that have been here for a while have been asked by new members, both here and on the old board, for information regarding a certain chip set with which they seemed familiar. As an example - I'm fairly shitty about returning PMs (unlike Red I actually do get hundreds of emails a day at work), but when someone asks about something like PNY or Dunes values, I made it a point to respond as quickly as possible. That, writ large, is how people get accurate, timely, and impartial information.

But you do what you want, kids. I'm just here to to be a dickhead, make nativity scenes with dice chips, and get a set of snapper Sun Fly chips for a limit game I'm going to hold twice a year.

 

[slisk250]

Perhaps many of us don't really care to turn this hobby and site into more of a "business". than it already is.

 

[bergs]

FWIW, Psypher said it 10 times better than me.

 

[12thMan]

@12thMan - I actually am a dickhead.

I never mentioned you and wasn't thinking of you when I made that comment, I am aware of your dickheadedness.

 

[12thMan]

Perhaps many of us don't really care to turn this hobby and site into more of a "business". than it already is.

That's the whole thing, I don't think it's "meant" to turn anything into more of anything. It's not about making it a business at all, I do understand how it could be perceived as that though.

And while I agree with you in spirit about not making it a business because that's not why I'm here either, it would be foolish to suggest that prices aren't any sort of a factor. We ALL pay attention to prices and buy low when we can, everybody loves a good deal. And as far as selling high? People love to act like they would never even dream of making a dime on chips....but there sure have been a good amount of chips that have been held onto for a while that have been recently sold when coincidentally chip prices are on a big uptick. I don't think it's an accident or happenstance in every case, nor should it be either, if I had a beautiful set of very desireable chips and I saw what the prices were I would be swayed to the sell it side like a lot of people would. If I wanted to sell that is, should point that out. I hate selling chips.

I sell auto glass, not poker chips, I know I'm not going to use it for starting a poker chip flipping business so maybe I discount the notion that your point brings up more than I should...but I still think it's not a reason for something not to exist.

 

[slisk250]

I stand by my comment. There are at least two kinds of chippers here, those who came to join a community of chip enthusiasts and those who came to join a community of chip enthusiasts and then saw the opportunity to make money. A chip enthusiast will buy chips they want. Others act differently I presume.

 

[Chicken Rob]

As originally described it was doing more than presenting data about recent sales. It was presenting statistical inferences that I believe will be harmful to the hobby.

If it had a larger pool of sales data, and a more reliable method to capture a larger percentage of sale data, my opinion might change.

I hold a doctorate in an applied stats field, and my colleagues don't understand statistics particularly well. The tool as described seemed to be more likely to be a source of misinterpreted, incomplete, and therefore ultimately misleading information.

That said, I'll take the under on 1 year for duration that it remains active if it ever goes live.

 

[12thMan]

I figured I'd help you out, while you're 'helping' others.

... 'an' annual print catalog... not 'a' annual print catalog
... 'a' purportedly real time... not 'an' purportedly real time
... 'naivete' of new hobbyists... not 'nativity' of new hobbyists

I saw his first reply to me and then went into reply before reading his second post, when I did see it I got to the "a/an" part and smiled a little. I almost made another post quoting it with a link to Skitt's Law but I figured since I knew what he was trying to say, plus I'm not the kind of guy that would correct someone over a mistake we all learned about in elementary school, I didn't bother. Plus, I knew it would be pretty obvious to anybody that reads it how cool you can look correcting someone else when the 1st and 6th words of that persons very next post are used wrong. Like I say, I love the internet.

 

[chkmte]

I might be wrong, but it sounds as if everyone has already made up their mind - about a project that hasn't even been demonstrated. Perhaps I don't have all the facts though.

 

[Chicken Rob]

My concerns were not about the project in general, but the actual implementation details presented.

There could be a historic public chip price database that I would not object to, i just had a lot of issues based on details described.

 

[chkmte]

Fair enough. Those details I wasn't present for.

 

[BGinGA]

Sounded (and still sounds) like a good idea to me. Just more info.

 

[Psypher1000]

it sounds as if everyone has already made up their mind about a project that hasn't even been demonstrated.

Well...yes, but since the project hasn't been demonstrated, all we can do is theorycraft with incomplete info. Someone presented an idea, and folks formed an opinion on that idea.

Ideally we all have the tool available to us so we can come to a more informed, complete opinion, but my understanding is that it's not ready for prime time yet. It would have been better had its existence never been mentioned before it was ready to be reviewed, but that's besides the point. The cat is out of the bag and initial opinions have been formed. If/when the tool and all the data becomes available I'm sure the interested parties will review it and re-form their opinion accordingly. Until then, all we can do is form our opinions on partial info.

 

[12thMan]

I stand by my comment. There are at least two kinds of chippers here, those who came to join a community of chip enthusiasts and those who came to join a community of chip enthusiasts and then saw the opportunity to make money. A chip enthusiast will buy chips they want. Others act differently I presume.

Can't argue with that, would agree 100%.

Also @Chicken Rob , I'm not going to even attempt to debate something like this with someone that has your credentials and intelligence, seems a silly thing on my part, I can understand exactly what you are saying. I think just calling it the "chip pricing tool" gave it that feeling. Also, I remember the FS threads that Rainman popped into, and yeah, that was at best a faux pas for classified etiqute and I can definitely see how at worst it comes accross as "I'm setting the prices.".

I just wonder if everything was brought to light in a different way if it would have been received better. I do believe that because of the chain of events and the way the threads happened it was brought to everybodys attention in a negative way. If it would have been introduced as more of a "hey guys, check this shit out, I don't know if anybody is interested or not but with all the threads with people asking about chip prices I have been thinking about writing a program that could get all the data together we could reference instead of searching eBay threads.....". Instead I think it felt very "Hey guys, heres the chip PRICING tool.", and while I've said before that I can understand how people got that impresision, I don't think that was the honest intent of the project. As evidence to that fact I want to reference @slisk250 quote above and point out that while I have zero direct knowledge (haven't bought or sold anything with Rainman yet), it sure would seem that Rainman is here to be the first kind of chipper you mentioned. He's sending me free chips, I know he's done the same for others, and I think I can also recall people in threads thanking him for hooking them up. Sounds like an asset to the community and someone that might deserve a tiny benefit of doubt, no? Someone can chime in with where he is predatory chip flipping, I may have missed something, I just don't get that vibe, do you?

I will also fully admit that I may be completely wrong about all this, I've never once spoken to Trail about anything to do with the chip pricing thing or anything else other than the occasional poker chip and life stuff . I have zero dog in this fight except that I think some things are a little unfair about the situation and how peoples intentions are judged.

Either way, have a good weekend all, I need to play some poker and clique my mouse.

 

[manamongkids]

I stand by my comment. There are at least two kinds of chippers here, those who came to join a community of chip enthusiasts and those who came to join a community of chip enthusiasts and then saw the opportunity to make money. A chip enthusiast will buy chips they want. Others act differently I presume.

DING DING DING DING DING DING

chip flippers and "capitalists" - heres what I think

 

[12thMan]

DING DING DING DING DING DING

chip flippers and "capitalists" - heres what I think

View attachment 43853

Who are they? Who are you/any one else referring to?

I admit I am always behind the times because I usually miss the drama threads, but are there a bunch of people here who only want to make money on chips?

 

[manamongkids]

Who are they? Who are you/any one else referring to?

I admit I am always behind the times because I usually miss the drama threads, but are there a bunch of people here who only want to make money on chips?

Haha theyre here, Im not going to name names. Not worth the outrage or uproar.

 

[chkmte]

In defense of @RainmanTrail and his project...

Several members here shit in my yard when I accidentally represented myself as a flipper. I've had many successful transactions in my first month and my pricing has been a steady 20% less than recent eBay pricing.

My point is...

Maybe we should wait and see, learn more and be a little slower to judge and criticize ones ambitions. Not just on PCF, but in life. Give folks a little rope to work with. In time they'll either do something positive or hang themselves - but only time will tell.

 

[12thMan]

Haha theyre here, Im not going to name names. Not worth the outrage or uproar.

Fair enough, I'm honestly ignorant of the going on lately. I'll pay half attention to the classifieds when something catches my eye but I went on such a buying spree last year I have had to step away from the paypal for a bit. It's easier for me if I just don't look. Even selling chips turned into trading chips with me kicking in cash for one deal, wtf I was supposed to be selling.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Fair enough. Those details I wasn't present for.

All the posts are still out there. If you are present now, you are present for reading the discussion.

As for the "pricing tool", 12th Man is right - Rainman fucked up the presentation. He came across like he was the world's foremost authority in chipping, and he is far, FAR, from earning that reputation. David, on the other hand is highly respected - in particular in the world on single chip collecting.

Most chip collectors on this forum are about putting together playable sets. That's why nearly every rare set for sale has at least 1 post asking about breaking up the set. Because I paid $2.75 per chip to get some badly needed $25 chips out of an set does not mean I value the $500 or the the $5 chips at that same price. I may put what I don't need back out on the market, thus bringing what actually paid per chip way back down. No price tool can ever account for that.

You simply cannot treat chip-set sales, where everyone needs different amounts, the same way you treat baseball cards, stamps, or single chips, where everyone is looking for the same number - 1.

Finally, on the "profiteers"...

Yes there have been "flippers" - people that called "dibs" on an undervalued set that just turned around and sold them TO THE SAME COMMUNITY for a fucking profit. There are those that orchestrated "Group Buys" JUST TO MASH OUT A PROFIT.

Then there are those that are very up-front about group buys, or their chip sales. There are tons of people that have shipped chips FOR FREE just to share. And - I cannot state this one enough... this board is full of FREE information. In blind structures alone, @BGinGA has freely given excellent advice so often, he probably has a macro written just to save the time of re-posting the same 25/50 - 25/75 blind structure that I mock on a regular basis. If BGinGA demanded pay for that service, he'd be a wealthy man. Never mind the amount of money @bergs has passed up. Someday, I'm going to be playing him heads-up for stacks, and I'm going to tilt him by pointing out how Don Rickles made a career and fortune off of what Bergs has been posting FOR FREE.

When someone new walks in, says "everyone is doing it wrong, and when I'm ready, I'll sell you the way to do it right"...... An asshole by any other name would smell as shitty.

And yes, I know Bergs answer to playing for stacks is an un-tiltable shove/rebuy, provided he has a 3 outer. I was on a roll and was typing it anyway.

 

[12thMan]

Don Rickles made a career and fortune off of what Bergs has been posting FOR FREE.
.

lol Well, you may know how to run a zombie tournament that I would love to play in some day but you sure don't know comedy.

Seriously though, I don't know how I feel about chip flipping in itself, I think I'm "neutral" over all, but yeah, it sucks when it happens in this small community. Also definitely forgot about the one thing you mentioned with the group buy, that was kind of a screwy situation as well but at least Tommy got a site sponsor out of it.

 

[Poker Zombie]

at least Tommy got a site sponsor out of it.

For about 2 minutes

 

[chkmte]

Well @Poker Zombie , I don't know you. But when someone comes off like a dick, they tend not to keep my attention.

 

[Poker Zombie]

... and I will take a Bergs 2 paragraph tirade over a 30 minute Rickles performance, anyday.

 

[12thMan]

That's fine, I would take a bullet to the head over being burned from the feet up.


edit: to add smiley, can't use a death reference with out a smiley.

 

[12thMan]

For about 2 minutes

Oh. Yeah. Well, two minutesd better than none I guess.

 

[BGinGA]

Well @Poker Zombie , I don't know you. But when someone comes off like a dick, they tend not to keep my attention.

Which is exactly why you don't have mine.

 

[slisk250]

And yes, I know Bergs answer to playing for stacks is an un-tiltable shove/rebuy, provided he has a 3 outer. I was on a roll and was typing it anyway.

Pretty good summation of that whole database drama Zombie.

I would love to see you go up against @bergs (after 6 IPAs each) in flips at a future BBotB. Since you most likely won't be coming to Denver, I can ship this shirt to give him some motivation..not that he needs any.