Chip Pricing (1 Viewer)

[David O]

I was a not in the market for Jack chips although I think they look spectacular. I had spent my chip funds elsewhere (cough, Matsui GB).

I've heard nothing but good things about Jim and I'm glad he sold through PCF. My assumption is that he thought long and hard about how to market them in a way that balanced making a reasonable profit and recouping his investment quickly. On top of this, he wanted to make sure the system was as fair as possible. The system he came up with encouraged folks to buy large numbers of chips. I am guessing he anticipated that some folks would buy extra of certain denominations and then trade / resell / etc. That seems like the obvious move. The price increase for the second sale indicates he probably underestimated demand a bit and sold chips faster than he expected in round 1.

If Jim wanted to optimize for profit, he could have set prices very high and sold the chips more slowly over time. Harvard Economists call this the "ChipsDealer eBay Strategy". Clearly, he wanted to move inventory and that's why there is a little room left for resellers.

I can understand the disappointment of folks who wanted Jack Chips and did not get them because of technical challenges. But I also do not fault folks who are reselling their Jack chips. Market forces indicate that chips will go to those that want them the most and are willing to pay for them. This is the purpose of prices. We are talking about a hobby here, so we can't claim a need or measure in an objective way how much individuals "really" want them. What council of elders would decide that?

I'd put the whole Jack's thing in a bucket of commercial activity which is a lot different from some of the friendly deals that happen when folks are filling out sets or doing favors for friends. Folks who take advantage of those kinds of friendly deals are guaranteeing they will not receive future friendly treatment. That hurts themselves more than anything else.

Regardless of price, I'm happy to see chips come to market. I'm glad some BTP sets have drifted out. They will circulate just like the boat chips have. Hell, lots of people here who were not part of the original boat chips purchase have owned and sold boat chips at this point. It's almost like a rite of passage. The same will happen with jacks, and soon enough at discounted prices.

@David O - If you ever decide to auction those spotted birds, I am confident it will be the most epic auction that has ever happened on PCF. But in the meantime keep collecting them until every bird is safely in captivity.

I am trying to complete racks of the spotted with birds. I have several racks of the spotted without the bird which I have been contemplating selling but it’s way to hard to let them go. I have paid some big prices on some and others I got at a decent price. It could make for a good auction though. Not sure what the market would do but it could be a fun one to watch.

 

[v1pe]

Hold up...on the Jacks I thought you had to buy lots of denoms to meet some distributions. Unless I read it wrong it’d be nearly impossible to get a cash set without some high denoms too. Could this barrel not just be that?

The 1K chips were limited to 5% of your total order. Really the only chips that you definitely had to add to your order to obtain the higher denoms (or the fracs) and still make the percentages work were 1s/25s/100s...I can't think of a very valid scenario where you would HAVE to order the 1k/5k/25c chips in order to make your breakdown work.

 

[WhiteMamba1646]

I ordered 20 secondary 1K on st pattys day by themselve. You didnt need the percentage on the second order

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

I ordered 20 secondary 1K on st pattys day by themselve. You didnt need the percentage on the second order

So you’ve got 20 secondary $1K to sell me? I kid I kid

 

[v1pe]

Back to the topic at hand...I generally think that the market is going to play out how it plays out. If everything here were posted in Auction format I don't really think this discussion would even be necessary. Chips would fetch whatever price the market was willing to bear. Minty custom Paulson's would fetch a pretty penny, worn Horseshoes would not. Classified ads that are "overpriced" or "undesirable" would not sit unsold as long as they often do, and most everyone would pay the prices they are willing to pay (which really happens either way, I think).

Yeah, I think it's awesome when people re-sell things at cost (or less), or find a killer deal and re-sell them for less than market acceptable prices but still make a small profit for their efforts. Yeah, I find it kind of annoying when unobtainable (for me) chips are sold at cost+800-1000%...but if I'm honest with myself that's really just because I wish I either had the funds to pay the price the market is willing to bear OR I wish I could have gotten in at the ground floor to have the chips myself OR I wish I was the one selling them and raking in the profits.

So instead of being annoyed I choose to just watch with awe the amounts of money we sickos are willing to pay for little clay discs and I choose to wish happiness on the seller's new found funds and the buyer's new found chips.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

Back to the topic at hand...I generally think that the market is going to play out how it plays out. If everything here were posted in Auction format I don't really think this discussion would even be necessary. Chips would fetch whatever price the market was willing to bear. Minty custom Paulson's would fetch a pretty penny, worn Horseshoes would not. Classified ads that are "overpriced" or "undesirable" would not sit unsold as long as they often do, and most everyone would pay the prices they are willing to pay (which really happens either way, I think).

Yeah, I think it's awesome when people re-sell things at cost (or less), or find a killer deal and re-sell them for less than market acceptable prices but still make a small profit for their efforts. Yeah, I find it kind of annoying when unobtainable (for me) chips are sold at cost+800-1000%...but if I'm honest with myself that's really just because I wish I either had the funds to pay the price the market is willing to bear OR I wish I could have gotten in at the ground floor to have the chips myself OR I wish I was the one selling them and raking in the profits.

So instead of being annoyed I choose to just watch with awe the amounts of money we sickos are willing to pay for little clay discs and I choose to wish happiness on the seller's new found funds and the buyer's new found chips.

Definitely the right attitude to have!

 

[MatB]

how long were the 1k secondary and primaries available?

i tried about 20 minutes after 2pm.. no good.

 

[WhiteMamba1646]

They went in minutes i was told

 

[MD Mike]

An appropriate time to mention that @MD Mike gave me an entire rack of chips once. Karma this man!!!!!!

To be fair, you said you would love and treasure those fives forever.

That’s all I could ever ask for

 

[Lemonzest]

Hold up...on the Jacks I thought you had to buy lots of denoms to meet some distributions. Unless I read it wrong it’d be nearly impossible to get a cash set without some high denoms too. Could this barrel not just be that?

Why bother being rational when pitchforks are within arms reach?

 

[Lemonzest]

The 1K chips were limited to 5% of your total order. Really the only chips that you definitely had to add to your order to obtain the higher denoms (or the fracs) and still make the percentages work were 1s/25s/100s...I can't think of a very valid scenario where you would HAVE to order the 1k/5k/25c chips in order to make your breakdown work.

Sure but have you ever changed your mind?

 

[RowdyRawhide]

I'm all for free market, make as much as you can, or backroom deals, where you sell it to good buddy for less.......whatever.....but when you have a FOR SALE ad and it's not selling at your listed price for two f*$#ing months or more and keep giving it the "bump" ......you might want to take a f@#$ing hint and realize you are NOT at market value and may want to reduce your price(or just remove the ad for a year or so).......and I'm not singling anyone out because there's way more than one out there. Unfortunately market corrections happen everywhere .....stocks..... commodities... grains.....cattle(this one hits close to home for me)....housing market......and yes chips.........its a fact of capitalism

 

[ovo]

I am trying to complete racks of the spotted with birds. I have several racks of the spotted without the bird which I have been contemplating selling but it’s way to hard to let them go. I have paid some big prices on some and others I got at a decent price. It could make for a good auction though. Not sure what the market would do but it could be a fun one to watch.

I'll toss you a fish

 

[RowdyRawhide]

I am trying to complete racks of the spotted with birds. I have several racks of the spotted without the bird which I have been contemplating selling but it’s way to hard to let them go. I have paid some big prices on some and others I got at a decent price. It could make for a good auction though. Not sure what the market would do but it could be a fun one to watch.

I'm your huckelberry....

 

[v1pe]

Sure but have you ever changed your mind?

Yeah of course, all the time...but (personally, IMHO, YMMV, etc.) I would have deliberated extensively about my order given the circumstances of the sale and I wouldn't have changed my mind that quickly. I guess I might not have worried so much if I had thought that I could easily sell my mistake at a decent profit...but then again that's kind of the point isn't it?

 

[Lemonzest]

Yeah of course, all the time...but (personally, IMHO, YMMV, etc.) I would have deliberated extensively about my order given the circumstances of the sale and I wouldn't have changed my mind that quickly. I guess I might not have worried so much if I had thought that I could easily sell my mistake at a decent profit...but then again that's kind of the point isn't it?

At the end of the day there are so many variables. We cant read peoples minds or know their intentions. We dont know what someones personal, financial, or health situation is. If people want to assume the worst about others based on very little information be my guest. Personally, I think its way out of line. Let people buy/sell for what they want. It really is that simple. Not everyone is going to share the same ethos or values and thats just life.

 

[v1pe]

At the end of the day there are so many variables. We cant read peoples minds or know their intentions. We dont know what someones personal, financial, or health situation is. If people want to assume the worst about others based on very little information be my guest. Personally, I think its way out of line. Let people buy/sell for what they want. It really is that simple. Not everyone is going to share the same ethos or values and thats just life.

I agree, did you read my post earlier on this page? I was simply answering the question that was asked, and at the same time attempting to explain why some might be upset about seeing these chips up for auction (especially so quickly). I have no personal investment in the Jack chips (emotional or financial). If nothing else I think it's nice that the chips were put up for auction at cost.

 

[davin]

An appropriate time to mention that @MD Mike gave me an entire rack of chips once. Karma this man!!!!!!

@MD Mike gave me a sample set of a set of chips I owned so I could have extras after he had just won them!!!! That I’ll never forget!!! Mike is the man !!!

 

[Poker Zombie]

At the end of the day there are so many variables. We cant read peoples minds or know their intentions. We dont know what someones personal, financial, or health situation is. If people want to assume the worst about others based on very little information be my guest. Personally, I think its way out of line. Let people buy/sell for what they want. It really is that simple. Not everyone is going to share the same ethos or values and thats just life.

Don't get me wrong... buy and sell for whatever you want. Capitalism is alive and well. So is the freedom of speech - which unlike capitalism, is protected by the United States constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

 

[Darson]

This is why I buy ceramics. I'm guaranteed to sell them at a loss...

... and everyone thinks I'm a great guy

 

[jazzV3]

> I did however get plenty of offers to buy reds for 400-500 per rack from a lot of the same people in the Jack threads.

Just my .02
How can you call out the guy who listed the public auction when you have this same behavior behind the scenes?
Because these transactions are not made public, it didn't/doesn't happen?

The sales model that Chip Room selected to quickly sell a large number of chips will inevitably leave some room for cases of re-selling.
Kudos to Jim for implementing rules that limit one's ability to scoop up large numbers of rarer chips with the sole intent to resell.

I liked the Secondary Market thread that was opened after the Cleveland Horseshoe sale to allow for members to work together to fill out their sets.
Even there, the more desirable chips were valued higher after some initial equal swaps.

 

[Lemonzest]

I agree, did you read my post earlier on this page? I was simply answering the question that was asked, and at the same time attempting to explain why some might be upset about seeing these chips up for auction (especially so quickly). I have no personal investment in the Jack chips (emotional or financial). If nothing else I think it's nice that the chips were put up for auction at cost.

Sure. I wasn't intending to pick on you specifically. I was just giving my 2c on the topic as a whole.

 

[Lemonzest]

Don't get me wrong... buy and sell for whatever you want. Capitalism is alive and well. So is the freedom of speech - which unlike capitalism, is protected by the United States constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

I like to criticize the US for their horrendous foreign policy but freedom of speech is one area where you guys excel. Unlike you guys we don't actually have freedom of speech. Anyway, that is for another thread.

The problem is creating a culture of finger pointing which is ultimately toxic. The fact that David made a thread like this and somehow isn't comfortable selling for whatever he wants for fear of judgement from the "community" illustrates my point clearly.

I was trying to buy a sample set from someone a few weeks ago via PM and they literally said the following "I've mostly hoarded chips or auctioned them. So I get a little nervous on the sell side. Seems a bit of a sensitive area on the forums".

The fact that new people are nervous to sell for fear of judgement is ridiculous. David expressed a similar sentiment in the OP. Maybe people should just calm down and live and let live instead of rushing to judge people with almost no information.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Unlike you guys we don't actually have freedom of speech. Anyway, that is for another thread.

Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2: Freedom of opinions and expression.

Not a Canadian, so I may be remembering this wrong.

 

[Poker Zombie]

The problem is creating a culture of finger pointing which is ultimately toxic. The fact that David made a thread like this and somehow isn't comfortable selling for whatever he wants for fear of judgement from the "community" illustrates my point clearly.

I was trying to buy a sample set from someone a few weeks ago via PM and they literally said the following "I've mostly hoarded chips or auctioned them. So I get a little nervous on the sell side. Seems a bit of a sensitive area on the forums".

The fact that new people are nervous to sell for fear of judgement is ridiculous. David expressed a similar sentiment in the OP. Maybe people should just calm down and live and let live instead of rushing to judge people with almost no information.

I don't think it's toxic. If it helps to keep prices lower, that is good for the chippers with less expendable income. If Jim bans a flipper from participating in future sales, that is good for the community. If members won't sell, or will sell only as a last resort to known flippers, prices are kept down, and buying/selling becomes easier.

 

[inca911]

My complaint is when chips are purchased via the forum and then immediately resold to other chippers at a marked-up price. That action exploits the generosity of the original lower-cost sales and transfers the profit into the flipper's pocket. That's the true definition of "flipping" to me: exploiting an existing PCF sale to generate additional profit from a subsequent and nearly-immediate PCF sale. Flipping is a fast act with limited ownership, a parasitic tax intended solely for profit.

I liked the Secondary Market thread that was opened after the Cleveland Horseshoe sale to allow for members to work together to fill out their sets. Even there, the more desirable chips were valued higher after some initial equal swaps.

That was mine, and it was fun to help other friends and members get the extra high denomination chips that I wasn't planning to use. However, the reality is that some folks took the chips that were sold to them at cost and resold them for fairly high profits within just a couple of weeks (i.e., when the natural market price correction occurred). I was a bit disillusioned when I saw that; however, I now simply try to deal with chippers that are good friends and don't bother trying to correct the inequalities that exist elsewhere. Initial purchases and sales that are separated by time don't bother me as much, since the buyer is taking the risk of an adverse market correction. Buying cheaply from eBay/Craigslist/LetGo and selling for higher prices is also OK with me, as chips are becoming available to the forum that otherwise may not have been. I did that with the LCOs, and nobody has ever called me a "flipper" from that little adventure.

All that having been said, folks can do whatever they want to with chips they buy. After all, those chips are their property. Certainly selling "at cost" can be seen as an altruistic gesture, but plans change and surprises happen so l don't think anyone is qualified to be the forum judge and jury. Judging flipping is like judging porn, you know it when you see it and it's subjective to each individual. Just my $0.02 on the topic....

 

[jazzV3]

I don't think it's toxic. If it helps to keep prices lower, that is good for the chippers with less expendable income. If Jim bans a flipper from participating in future sales, that is good for the community. If members won't sell, or will sell only as a last resort to known flippers, prices are kept down, and buying/selling becomes easier.

>I don't think it's toxic. If it helps to keep prices lower, that is good for the chippers with less expendable income.
>If members won't sell, or will sell only as a last resort ....... prices are kept down, and buying/selling becomes easier.

Serious??

So the solution is to publicly and personally attack someone, so you can try to keep chip prices lower??
Am I reading this correctly, or is this sarcasm/comedy? If not sarcasm, it's the most self serving position I've read in a while.
Pretty much behavior as objectionable as the flipping you are calling out.

If comedy, then

 

[David O]

I like to criticize the US for their horrendous foreign policy but freedom of speech is one area where you guys excel. Unlike you guys we don't actually have freedom of speech. Anyway, that is for another thread.

The problem is creating a culture of finger pointing which is ultimately toxic. The fact that David made a thread like this and somehow isn't comfortable selling for whatever he wants for fear of judgement from the "community" illustrates my point clearly.

I was trying to buy a sample set from someone a few weeks ago via PM and they literally said the following "I've mostly hoarded chips or auctioned them. So I get a little nervous on the sell side. Seems a bit of a sensitive area on the forums".

The fact that new people are nervous to sell for fear of judgement is ridiculous. David expressed a similar sentiment in the OP. Maybe people should just calm down and live and let live instead of rushing to judge people with almost no information.

I am not nervous selling chips because of what people might think. I am nervous about selling chips because I might miss them!!!

 

[Lemonzest]

Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2: Freedom of opinions and expression.

Not a Canadian, so I may be remembering this wrong.

In practice, we have something called the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal (CHRT). The Tribunal holds hearings to investigate complaints of discriminatory practices and may order a person to cease a practice, as well as order a person to pay compensation to the one making the complaint.

With the addition of Bill C-16 and the militant left wing stance of the Trudeau liberal government free speech does not exist in Canada the way it is understood in the US.

We fine comedians for making jokes...
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/mike-ward-comedian-human-rights-tribunal-1.3689465

 

[Lemonzest]

I don't think it's toxic. If it helps to keep prices lower, that is good for the chippers with less expendable income. If Jim bans a flipper from participating in future sales, that is good for the community. If members won't sell, or will sell only as a last resort to known flippers, prices are kept down, and buying/selling becomes easier.

You are missing the point. How can you know what someones intentions are? Maybe they are selling chips to pay for medical bills? Is flipping in this case now justified?
Are people obligated when selling to now provide an explanation or face an angry mob?
It is ridiculous.