Tourney Bring back antes? (1 Viewer)

[Chris Merrill]

Posted this in 2+2 a week ago - it is so dead over there, got ZERO responses. Hopefully this place is a bit more active.

>>As the host of a regular home game tournament, I did away with antes quite a number of years ago simply because they were a pain for me to enforce and for players to remember. I have always missed them as antes of course are what make a real tournament, they are what drive the action and make pots worth fighting for. But it was simply easier to not have them in a home game where everybody takes a turn in dealing.

Then I watched the super high roller bowl and saw that they simply made a big blind pay the antes for the table. Pretty genius I think, I can't wait to try it out in my game, but what do people here think? I would love to get some opinions on the idea – to me it seems like a pretty good solution to achieving a balance between convenience and a good tournament structure.

The SHRB ante was always the amount of the big blind, so essentially the big blind was posting a double, one in front of him and one in the center of the table. I was thinking maybe we could have the ante amount be small and then multiplied by the number of players at the table, so for example if the anti-is 25 and there are 10 players, a big blind would throw 250 into the middle. What do you guys think? What's the best way to go about this?

 

[Poker Zombie]

Sounds terrible. Paying 11 BB will quickly mean the BB is all in on a single hand, be it good or bad.

Paying one extra BB isn't sweetening the pot enough to matter. In most tournaments with an ante, the ante is roughly 1/8th the BB, which doesn't create much of a pot to battle for either, as it's just +1 BB.

I think antes are terrible for home games anyway. All an ante does is deplete short stacks faster. In a casino, that gets players into a cash game faster, or at the very least requires fewer dealers sooner. The goal in a home tourney is to enjoy friends and fellowship, not to take their money and send them home.

 

[FDLmold]

Dead at 2+2? Where do people do their poker strategy talking nowadays?

More dead money from antes that is in the pot, the more hands you should play. Antes should equal action.

You'll need to adjust your levels. With the same starting stacks, if you want the same length tournament as you are used to, the blinds should go down as much as the antes go up so that each orbit in each level still costs players the same. As Poker Zombie wrote, getting the ante-as-a-fraction-of-the-big-blind amount correct is important. In a level of 500-1000, I would expect an ante of around 100.

 

[Rhodeman77]

The double big blind I can see working as a compromise. You could go to a 3 blind system or have the dealer post it as well. Any way to get more dead money in the pot will drive action.

But having the BB pay the full ante of any amount x the number players is too much. It would also create logistical problems. Say that player goes bust on the hand he posts for the table, well his ante is pre paid for the entire orbit so he should get dealt cards and be ellible to win the amout of the antes for the rest of the orbit. Also being the BB is hard enough, now you are forcing him to put in a much larger amount of chips with horrible position, too unfair IMO.

 

[moose]

I find this board is very anti-ante. All the good home games around my area use them.

It doesn't take much to teach even recreational players not to deal to a player until their ante is sitting out in front. Once this process is reinforced then antes go pretty smoothly.

As mentioned antes force action and reward aggressive players who fight for pots rather than those who sit back and tighten up as they get short and wait for premium hands which just turn later rounds into allin shovefests. Antes smooth out the levels so the round to round jumps are smaller, making for a better structure.

That being said, the only time I have seen a player forced to ante for the entire table was only for the first level with antes and it was the button who put in the ante. This was more for convenience when say it would keep a small denom in play unnecessarily for just the antes. This is commonly seen in stud tourneys. I think it would be terribly unfair to do this in later levels when tables are unbalanced and collapsing and players are moved from a short table into a full table or a short player is put allin due to having to post the ante for the entire table.

 

[BGinGA]

Agree with @moose above that antes definitely have a place in tournament poker. Our premier league has used an ante blind structure for 15 seasons with no issues whatsoever. We even occasionally run an antes-only NLHE tournament (no blinds, just antes), which is pretty popular. It considerably changes the betting dynamics, and all for the better imo. Having a dedicated dealer to control it all does help, but is certainly not required with competent players.

Only circumstances I'd have a single player post antes for the entire table is a cash game (with the button posting for all), and even then, only to eliminate the need for a very small denomination chip from being in play in games that depend on them (like stud games, etc.).

 

[upNdown]

I've gotten to prefer antes, but I didn't start out that way. But I think this might be a clumsy solution. Even though there's the same amount of money going into the pot, I can't help but think the way it gets in there will influence play.

 

[FDLmold]

If it is 9-handed, 500-1000 w 100 ante, if I am first in the pot, it is 1000 to call with 2400 in the pot.
Same game, no ante, 800-1600 level, if I am first in the pot it is 1600 to call with 2400 in the pot.

There is a significant difference between those two scenarios.

 

[joepro]

I have played in many cash games with a dealer ante, but it makes less sense for a tournament I think. I do prefer tournaments with antes also.

 

[moose]

I meant to mention that I would recommend antes only if there is more than 20 players, ie you have 3 or more tables.

 

[Chris Manzoni]

Wow guys! Thanks so much for all the quick and great responses! Y'all are way better than those 2+2 schlubs.

We tried it Saturday night and it worked pretty well. I had flattened the structure considerably and went from 20 minutes to 25 minute levels, and we ended up finishing about the same time. We definitely had a lot of action and aggression and yes, if people sat around and didn't play hands they ended up getting severely crippled when the blind hit.

It was interesting though, even though we multiplied the ante (which was a standard size based on the WSOP) by the number of players at the table, it was almost always within a single chip or two of the big blind amount, and quite often it was exactly the same size, so I can see why in the super high roller bowl I simply made the amount the same as the big blind. That's probably what we will do next time to make things even more simple.

As for the divide about aunties in general here, I'm surprised that so many don't see the value in them, but hey different strokes right?

Again, thanks so much for the awesome responses!

 

[Lil Tuna]

All the tournaments I play in my area use antes. In my game I usually seat a person in the #1 seat that likes to work the middle of the table.
Doug is my "middle man" and he does a great job of getting everyone posted and ready for the deal.

 

[timinater]

I like antes in larger tournaments to force the action and encourage play, but single table home games I'm not super fond of. As for one player posting for all I don't believe that's appropriate for tournament play - not sure it's equitable enough for most home games.

In a cash game I'm ok with the the dealer or some designated person posting it for all.

 

[Max D]

Too handle the issue of antes (people forgetting, not being sure of how many, etc...), we have an Ante Sheriff, usually the guy across from the dealer handles the antes and makes sure they add up. That works for us.

 

[DaneWoj]

We moved our league to antes halfway thru last season. Best change we could have made. Forced the nitty folks to open up WAY sooner. We've had no issues with players not remembering to ante. We do have ante police in the middle of the table. We run tournaments with about 22-26 players and this has worked well to get us to final table quicker. This is ideal when we have a large group.

 

[Poker Zombie]

We moved our league to antes halfway thru last season. Best change we could have made. Forced the nitty folks to open up WAY sooner. We've had no issues with players not remembering to ante. We do have ante police in the middle of the table. We run tournaments with about 22-26 players and this has worked well to get us to final table quicker. This is ideal when we have a large group.

Does the tournament end sooner, or does it just knock out the nitty players sooner?

 

[DaneWoj]

Does the tournament end sooner, or does it just knock out the nitty players sooner?

We do 20 min levels and we end nearly and hour earlier. We reach a FT nearly an hour earlier.

Yes the nitty guys have to actually play a hand sooner in the night. They gotta get in there and rumble.

 

[Wils]

Ok is there a "This is when the tourney will end" formula for tourneys with antes? Blinds only tourneys usually end roundabout the "big blind = 5% of the starting stack" stage...

 

[DaneWoj]

Ok is there a "This is when the tourney will end" formula for tourneys with antes? Blinds only tourneys usually end roundabout the "big blind = 5% of the starting stack" stage...

Tournament usually will end when 8% of the total chips in play is in the pot before cards are dealt?

Does that work?

 

[BGinGA]

Few tournaments make it past the level where a total of 20 big blinds are in play. Tournaments with antes tend to finish closer to when a total of 30 big blinds are on the table.

 

[Michael Murphy]

I just started hosting, and haven't done a tournament yet.
We are playing a cash game with antes, dealers choice of game with that game played for 1 full orbit. Our first game antes were a problem with the pot always short and not being able to figure out who wasn't in. I know it sounds strange, but its a social game and with everyone talking sometimes its hard to remember if you posted your ante or not. Our 2nd game I instituted the rule that the ante be posted on the betting line in front of the player like the rest of the bets, and only when all antes were posted would they be moved to the pot and play continue. That worked well.

 

[Trihonda]

I've played a lot of tourneys with antes and without.

In larger tourneys (with dedicated dealers) antes are ok, if they aren't abnoxiously large. In self dealt games, antes tend to slow the action.. A lot. And in a tourney, slowing the play down sucks. For you folks that have not experienced slower play in self dealt games with antes, more power to you. It's like 20 extra seconds per hand to collect the effing bounties, remind the talkers (or phone users) to post their antes... Royal PITA. A dedicated dealer controls the pace, action, and the pot. It's easy for them to remind players, and collect antes and blinds.

 

[Steve Birrer]

I think, for home games, you need to assess how your games are going compared to what you desire.

For instance, for several years we have been playing the same blind structure with no antes. Its set up to take about 4 hours. The shortest we have ever gone was 3 1/2 hours (and that was just once). Most of the games have been in the 4 to 4 1/2 hours so right in line with how its planned. And only one time did it go to 5 hours and that was last week. We got down to three handed and it took quite some time to finish it out. It had nothing to do with ante's or needing more action. The chips just kept moving around the table.

Too many of the guys who play in our game are much more there for the friendship than the poker. Its hard enough to get the to pay enough attention to post the blinds and act when its their turn and not out of turn!

Bottom line is if your games are going fine with your blind structure and how long it takes to finish why much it up with antes?

 

[Chris Manzoni]

I think, for home games, you need to assess how your games are going compared to what you desire.

For instance, for several years we have been playing the same blind structure with no antes. Its set up to take about 4 hours. The shortest we have ever gone was 3 1/2 hours (and that was just once). Most of the games have been in the 4 to 4 1/2 hours so right in line with how its planned. And only one time did it go to 5 hours and that was last week. We got down to three handed and it took quite some time to finish it out. It had nothing to do with ante's or needing more action. The chips just kept moving around the table.

Too many of the guys who play in our game are much more there for the friendship than the poker. Its hard enough to get the to pay enough attention to post the blinds and act when its their turn and not out of turn!

Bottom line is if your games are going fine with your blind structure and how long it takes to finish why much it up with antes?

Because antes are essential to tournament play - raising less to win more is why aggression is king in NLHE tournaments. You get a lot more incentive to raise more often when the pots are worth fighting for and stacks are still reasonably deep.

That said, the point is well taken about antes being a PITA with home game players. I go back and forth, between what I know is better for the tournament structure and what is for sure better with casual players.

 

[Trihonda]

Because antes are essential to tournament play.

I don't necessarily agree with this absolute statement. Anties can be a good part of a tournament structure. Often times anties are utilized to speed up the tournament and generate action. However structure can often be modified to accomplish similar results without antes.

 

[Steve Birrer]

I don't necessarily agree with this absolute statement. Anties can be a good part of a tournament structure. Often times anties are utilized to speed up the tournament and generate action. However structure can often be modified to accomplish similar results without antes.

That was my point. For home games, I just find I can accomplish the same goal by using a smart blind structure. Now personally I would prefer to have antes built in. But just too hard with the guys that play in our game to do that. Takes more time to ping guys to get their antes in than it warrants having them.