"Big" PLO8 hand against a maniac

MrCatPants

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For those debating hand strength, and those that are trying to apply NLHE or even PLO high only logic to this starter...

Equities preflop do indeed run much closer in split pot, multi-card games. Some equity calculation examples of this hand vs. maniac potential ranges.

Note that the top hands do have to have a significant amount of card overlap, hence why they can run ahead.

versus random hand
HandEquityScoopsWins HiTies HiWins LoTies Lo
as2h3s4dqh60.61%267,912290,84614,225296,00030,557
*39.39%144,951294,92914,22511,90630,557

versus top 30% hand
HandEquityScoopsWins HiTies HiWins LoTies Lo
as2h3s4dqh55.71%214,454261,15936,264229,43690,218
1%-30%44.29%152,970302,57736,2649,68990,218

versus top 5% hand
HandEquityScoopsWins HiTies HiWins LoTies Lo
as2h3s4dqh49.00%155,367229,25550,988148,690163,819
1%-5%51.00%172,841319,75750,9886,138163,819

versus 'the nutzzz' (obviously super unlikely given the blockers this involves
HandEquityScoopsWins HiTies HiWins LoTies Lo
as2h3s4dqh36.16%132,665230,69296,9840397,408
adac2c3d4s63.84%311,223522,99296,9840397,408
 

Jimulacrum

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I guess we have different options on what constitutes “big bets flying” making it $20 preflop is how we make it possible to make real bets on the flop. And if the flop is the worst flop possible, KJJ we can let go of $20 easily enough and not have it be a big hit to the stack.
Yup, that's pretty much the plan. If it goes 4 ways to the flop for $20 and then the flop shits on your hand like this, you get away for $20.

Hell, you may even find some spots where the flop comes out KJJ (or 998 or whatever) and you can steal it for one more bet from your super-loose SB, who will have total crap most of the time. But let's see how the rest plays out before getting too excited about that prospect.
 

Rhodeman77

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For those debating hand strength, and those that are trying to apply NLHE or even PLO high only logic to this starter...

Equities preflop do indeed run much closer in split pot, multi-card games. Some equity calculation examples of this hand vs. maniac potential ranges.

Note that the top hands do have to have a significant amount of card overlap, hence why they can run ahead.

versus random hand
HandEquityScoopsWins HiTies HiWins LoTies Lo
as2h3s4dqh60.61%267,912290,84614,225296,00030,557
*39.39%144,951294,92914,22511,90630,557

versus top 30% hand
HandEquityScoopsWins HiTies HiWins LoTies Lo
as2h3s4dqh55.71%214,454261,15936,264229,43690,218
1%-30%44.29%152,970302,57736,2649,68990,218

versus top 5% hand
HandEquityScoopsWins HiTies HiWins LoTies Lo
as2h3s4dqh49.00%155,367229,25550,988148,690163,819
1%-5%51.00%172,841319,75750,9886,138163,819

versus 'the nutzzz' (obviously super unlikely given the blockers this involves
HandEquityScoopsWins HiTies HiWins LoTies Lo
as2h3s4dqh36.16%132,665230,69296,9840397,408
adac2c3d4s63.84%311,223522,99296,9840397,408

my desire to push this hand is to isolate the maniac and be in position. If this is normal TAG/ABC player raising us I flat 100% of the time and take a flop.
 

MrCatPants

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Pot is $12

Action on hero, who still has :as::2h::3s::4d::qh:

Hero raises to $15, thought was not going full pot might encourage a third to come along for the ride. Folds all the way to maniac who re-pots to $42.

Action on hero.
 

detroitdad

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Pot is $12

Action on hero, who still has :as::2h::3s::4d::qh:

Hero raises to $15, thought was not going full pot might encourage a third to come along for the ride. Folds all the way to maniac who re-pots to $42.

Action on hero.

It looks like he won't go away. If you think he'll call another raise, throw that shit in. If not. Then call.
 

grebe

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Damn....I know Im wrong here, but my plan is to flat, because even shitty players get over pairs. I know the more experienced players are gonna get in stacks though.
 

Rhodeman77

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I call at this point. If we catch any part of the flop we jam it in.
Pretty much any flop that isn’t paired Broadway cards. Or a single suite flop we don’t have and maniac bets pot into us.
 

Jimulacrum

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Pot is $12

Action on hero, who still has :as::2h::3s::4d::qh:

Hero raises to $15, thought was not going full pot might encourage a third to come along for the ride. Folds all the way to maniac who re-pots to $42.

Action on hero.
Re-pot. I believe that will take you to about $180, which may as well be all-in. Expect SB to put the rest in, and if not, prepare to do it on the flop. No folding allowed after this reraise.

This is one of the best outcomes you can hope for. Granted, SB can catch good hands just like the rest of us; maybe he even has the dreaded AA234 double suited. It can happen. But if his typical style of play involves raising excessively preflop, his range is very wide here, and only a tiny percent of it is made up of hands that are ahead of you. Many more of his hands will be behind, including (and this is important) quite a few that have no meaningful low prospects against A234. That half of the time or so that a low comes on board, you're likely to have half the pot locked up and be freerolling him for the high.
 

Jimulacrum

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I call at this point. If we catch any part of the flop we jam it in.
Pretty much any flop that isn’t paired Broadway cards. Or a single suite flop we don’t have and maniac bets pot into us.
Effective stacks are $220 to start. Flatting the $42 leaves about $90 in the pot and $178 effective. Pretty awkward spot SPR-wise, and doesn't allow for a flop shove.
 

upNdown

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Re-pot. I believe that will take you to about $180, which may as well be all-in. Expect SB to put the rest in, and if not, prepare to do it on the flop. No folding allowed after this reraise.

This is one of the best outcomes you can hope for. Granted, SB can catch good hands just like the rest of us; maybe he even has the dreaded AA234 double suited. It can happen. But if his typical style of play involves raising excessively preflop, his range is very wide here, and only a tiny percent of it is made up of hands that are ahead of you. Many more of his hands will be behind, including (and this is important) quite a few that have no meaningful low prospects against A234. That half of the time or so that a low comes on board, you're likely to have half the pot locked up and be freerolling him for the high.
I wonder if we should assume that a guy who raises preflop with a wide range also regularly 5-bets with that wide range?
 

Rhodeman77

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Effective stacks are $220 to start. Flatting the $42 leaves about $90 in the pot and $178 effective. Pretty awkward spot SPR-wise, and doesn't allow for a flop shove.
I mean I am going with it, betting/ raising pot on the flop makes us pot committed now is all.
 

Anthony Martino

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Pot is $12

Action on hero, who still has :as::2h::3s::4d::qh:

Hero raises to $15, thought was not going full pot might encourage a third to come along for the ride. Folds all the way to maniac who re-pots to $42.

Action on hero.

I mean, now that there's no chance of going multiway let's repot and let him know WE are the alpha male at this table and we won't be pushed around

pushed.jpg
 

Jimulacrum

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I wonder if we should assume that a guy who raises preflop with a wide range also regularly 5-bets with that wide range?
Yeah, that's the only place where I'm finding any pause here.

I'm assuming @MrCatPants has given us all the relevant information he has. He describes SB as a maniac who is raising 85% of his openers, which tells me he has no idea how to play O8 or even how to evaluate O8 openers. Based on that, I'm almost never folding a hand as strong as A234Q double suited against him preflop.

If SB only puts in that first raise 85% of the time but is notably more conservative for 3 bets or bigger, that might call for a different approach. But that would be a rather weird style, less common than a clueless spewer. Unless OP has some new information to add, I'm still on board with re-potting.
 

Kain8

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I'm pretty ambivalent between a shove and flatting. Really comes down to if you're willing/wanting to play for the whole enchilada preflop or if you want to hedge and cold call.
 
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