Asking a Player How Much he Has Left??? (1 Viewer)

[Polochris]

Question. Was in a home tournament over the weekend, and was involved in a hand with 3 other players. I was on the button, and I ask the player directly to my left, how much he has left, after him, and the other player acted. His bet was pretty large, and I was thinking about going all in, however I wanted to see if he had me covered, or if it was going to be close. He had his chips in tall stacks, not stack of 20s, and his hands on his cards with his arms in front of his chips. I ask how much he has, and he quickly says "doesn't matter".

I totally understand you are NOT required to say anything when asked that question, and we do not have a designated dealer to count his chips. What else is there to really do?

Is there a ruling on this matter, or is this just a matter of etiquette?

Thanks!

 

[Beakertwang]

If it was my game, I'd tell the guy not to be a dick, and he'd move to the bottom of my invite list. That kind of behavior is not conducive to an enjoyable home game.

 

[Legend5555]

Technically, no one is required to tell you how much they have. But they should be required to keep their chips organized in such a way that makes it easy as possible for you to get a general count yourself.

Since we don't have a dealer in my home games, I generally ask that the player count out their stack if asked just out of friendly courtesy.

 

[WedgeRock]

Big chips up front, everything visible, so you can get an idea. But you can't force a dbag to get a count... Just an eyeball.

 

[Polochris]

I also understand some people use the "how much you have left" as a tactic, and is very annoying if its used too much, but sometimes if you cant really tell their stack size, then you need to know! Move your dam arms at least lol.

 

[shorticus]

Interesting stuff here. As usual @Legend5555 is on the money with his assessment

https://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=600.0

 

[CdnBeerLover]

We have a published house rule stating that if you are all-in and asked, you must oblige. But to be honest, it's never been an issue.

Edit: double-checked, and it's only if you are all in. Clarification in bold. Otherwise, you have to follow the other guidelines stated (chips in countable stacks of 10 or 20, high denoms out front, etc).

 

[charitycase]

I've always been under the impression that a players score is open information for everyone to see. It is a game, there is a score. That said, I can concede to the personal-touch of this game and the emotions that follow... House rules shall be the law of the land!

 

[Polochris]

I've always been under the impression that a players score is open information for everyone to see. It is a game, there is a score. That said, I can concede to the personal-touch of this game and the emotions that follow... House rules shall be the law of the land!

I totally agree. A score is a score and it needs to be displayed.

 

[Legend5555]

Random side note.

I was playing at Caesar's in Vegas once in a cash game and was facing an all in bet from someone. I asked how much it was and she said, "you have me covered." I asked for a count and she declined. I asked the dealer to count it, and she said she couldn't. I called BS and had the floor come over. You are entitled to know the size of an all in obviously.

Felt good to bust her with just one pair on that hand.

 

[Hot Nuts]

Doyle won't give you a count. Nor will Tiffany Michelle.

 

[trigs]

Random side note.

I was playing at Caesar's in Vegas once in a cash game and was facing an all in bet from someone. I asked how much it was and she said, "you have me covered." I asked for a count and she declined. I asked the dealer to count it, and she said she couldn't. I called BS and had the floor come over. You are entitled to know the size of an all in obviously.

Felt good to bust her with just one pair on that hand.

Dealer refused to count it? That's weird.

 

[Legend5555]

Dealer refused to count it? That's weird.

I was beyond confused. I think I ended up calling before we ever confirmed the dealer should comply with my request, but I made my irritation known.

 

[timinater]

From the 2017 TDA Rules:

25: Cards & Chips Kept Visible, Countable, & Manageable. Discretionary Color-Ups
A: Players are entitled to a reasonable estimation of their opponents’chip counts;thus,chips should be kept in countable stacks. The TDA recommends clean stacks of 20 chips each as a standard. Higher denomination chips must be visible and identifiable at all times

In english: No, a player isn't required to give you a count, nor are you entitled to know an exact count of their chipstack (dealer or no dealer). You are entitled to see clearly their chipstack and to make your own estimation, as are you entitled to know the exact amount of a bet.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2e6qmif7...ker+TDA+Rules+Version+3.0+Longform+Final.docx

 

[Polochris]

Doyle won't give you a count. Nor will Tiffany Michelle.

Do you have first hand experience lol?!

 

[Hot Nuts]

Do you have first hand experience lol?!

Well, I watched them not give counts on tv. So yeah. lol

 

[Irish]

I play with a few guys who are very conscious about their tells, and when they're all in they prefer not to give a count out in fear of giving a tell (ie they're not just being a dick). I typically deal my games so I'll do the count, or we'll have a player nearby count out the chips if the player declines to do it themselves.

Me, on the other hand, I like to fuck with people when I get asked that question, so I'll start up with some next level hand shaking while stacking, lol.

 

[1A25R]

Is there a ruling on this matter, or is this just a matter of etiquette?

Both.
The rule says that you have to be able to estimate the opponent stack and this goes with allowing a chip count.

RRoP says:
18. Any player is entitled to a clear view of an opponent’s chips. Higher denomination chips should be easily visible.
25. Higher-denomination chips must be placed where they are easily visible to all other players at the table.

Therefore by having his hands on his cards with his arms in front of his chips, he is not complying with the rules.

Note: A dealer may announce an amount but it still to the player to make sure that the amount announced by the dealer is correct.

Regarding the etiquette, it seem obvious to me. If he does not want to answer to your question "doesn't matter" is already an answer.
And as yes, it matters to you, he could just move his hands away to let you see and estimate his stack.

 

[SeanGecko]

Well, I watched them not give counts on tv. So yeah. lol

Doyle has said so on an episode of High Stakes Poker.

 

[Lemonzest]

What you need to realize is that many players when asking "how much" are actually looking for information to make a read. Many times players have a good idea how much is there but they just want the player to say something to give them information.

For this reason I never answer that question. If someone asks me I just make sure my stack is visible. It isn't my job to count out chips for you.

If you want to know how much then you need to be okay looking at the stacks and figuring out how much is there approximately. Just my 2c and how I handle it.

 

[Eloe2000]

Almost always when one player at our table asks a second player how much they have left the second player will just lean back and take their hands and arms off of the table to give the other player a clear look without saying anything. Occasionally the first player will ask if they have anything big behind if they have an odd perspective and can’t see all of the big chips. If someone didn’t allow a look by taking their arms off of the table or if their chips were a mess or hiding big chips every single player at our table would be down their throats calling them out. But no one ever actually verbally answers the question.

 

[Polochris]

Both.
The rule says that you have to be able to estimate the opponent stack and this goes with allowing a chip count.

RRoP says:
18. Any player is entitled to a clear view of an opponent’s chips. Higher denomination chips should be easily visible.
25. Higher-denomination chips must be placed where they are easily visible to all other players at the table.

Therefore by having his hands on his cards with his arms in front of his chips, he is not complying with the rules.

Note: A dealer may announce an amount but it still to the player to make sure that the amount announced by the dealer is correct.

Regarding the etiquette, it seem obvious to me. If he does not want to answer to your question "doesn't matter" is already an answer.
And as yes, it matters to you, he could just move his hands away to let you see and estimate his stack.

What if he had stacks more than 20? And couldn’t really tell how many chips were in his stack?

 

[SeanGecko]

Casino - don't say a word.
Home game - your ass better count it because I just grabbed a drink, cashed a person in or out, my buddy had let his dog etc.

 

[Polochris]

What you need to realize is that many players when asking "how much" are actually looking for information to make a read. Many times players have a good idea how much is there but they just want the player to say something to give them information.

For this reason I never answer that question. If someone asks me I just make sure my stack is visible. It isn't my job to count out chips for you.

If you want to know how much then you need to be okay looking at the stacks and figuring out how much is there approximately. Just my 2c and how I handle it.

I don’t disagree.

 

[1A25R]

What if you play against a blind person ?

What if he had stacks more than 20? And couldn’t really tell how many chips were in his stack?

I count about 37'700 in that stack (he has a 500 in the stack of 25)

I do not know if you mean that there is something wrong in that picture
To me, the chips are visible

 

[Lemonzest]

I don’t disagree.

Does that mean you do agree

 

[Legend5555]

Does that mean you do agree

Show down grammar police!

 

[trigs]

If I'm asked sometimes I'll give an estimate like "around 20K" and sometimes I'll just move my hands and/or put my chips out and let them count themselves. When I ask others I'm always legit wanting to know how much they have and I'm not fishing for a tell. I don't think that trying to get a tell when asking is an angle or bad etiquette but I just don't like to do it. I will sometimes chat with the player in a heads up pot however to gauge their reaction.

 

[chipsncoffee]

This just seems unnecessary in a home game setting. I am guilty of keeping chips in stacks of more than 20 at times, but I know about what I have and would have no issue telling them. If I really, really didn’t want to say anything at a casino, I would absolutely, at the very least, move my hands.

 

[Gobbs]

If my chips are stacked neatly and my big chips are in front or on top (and they always are), count them yourself or ask the dealer to do it. You’re inability to visually count them is not my problem.

Having said that, when asked, I usually give a pretty accurate estimate and even count the bigger chips, if necessary. If I don’t, it’s not a tell, it just means I probably don’t like you.