drdr
Flush
Some value feel over longevity and price. All personal preference.
Anyway to find Modiano Platnium Acetates? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter frisco
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Phyffe
Two Pair
From experience, Platinum Acetates generally don't have longevity issues.
I have used several setups over the years and they have lasted as long and in many cases longer than COPAGs and Faded Spade. I have compared them as well to Desjgns, Kems, Bullets, Slowplays, Bicycle Duraflex, Ice & Da Vinci to name a few.
As I've written in other threads, bowing is usually the sign of a bad batch. It happens (maybe) one in a dozen decks. Consistently, the cards should start fading before bowing becomes too much of an issue. Usually the wear comes when the thin black lines on the squares where the pips of the number cards are start fading.
I've retired several decks for fading before bowing becomes an issue. And I've never had them disintegrate on me like I've had Kems do.
With all due respect, please keep in mind that one in a dozen is about 8.333%, which is still an incredibly high rate of product failure when push comes to shove. I mean if over 8% of airplanes failed then you certainly wouldn't be in a rush to fly anytime soon, right? Heck, even an airplane failure rate of 1%-2% would probably be more than enough to cause the entire commercial airline industry to vanish almost overnight.
And numerous people have literally opened brand new Kem cards only to discover that they are already bowed or warped. I had that exact same experience with one of the decks in my Modiano Platinum setup. So if new-in-box cards from multiple brands are bowing before ever even making it to a consumer then it isn't simply an issue of longevity or quality control. It is that, despite making cards that feel "buttery soft" and velvety, cellulose acetate itself seems to not be an ideal material for playing cards. For whatever reason it results in cards that are often either too brittle or prone to warping.
This is further evidenced by the number of companies that have tried - and failed - at making cellulose acetate cards. Remember that Dal Negro gave it a shot a while back on their "Freedom" line but gave up on it, and Modiano actually discontinued their Platinum line years ago. The Guild card line was the result of a Kickstarter campaign back in 2014 by Liberty Playing Cards/Playingcards.net/Gambler’s Warehouse (which are apparently all the same company out of Grand Prairie, Texas) to make cellulose acetate cards. And although they are still around they certainly never took off in terms of popularity. Truth be told, we don't even know for sure if Guild cards are actually still being produced or not... maybe they are simply selling off their existing old stock (like we see with Modiano Platinums). And the Angel Group reserves cellulose acetate strictly for their "Angel Playing Cards Co., Ltd." setups in the green box, which are basically only sold in Japan and have extremely limited distribution. So the only brand that has ever actually seen any semblance of success marketing cellulose acetate playing cards is Kem... and their struggles over the years have been documented by PCF members ad nauseam.
All in all, everybody is welcome to their own opinions of course. But, at least to me, the history of cellulose acetate in playing cards hardly seems like any indicator of a "best in class" material. Maybe someone will eventually invent methods to minimize its deficiencies at some point, but until then acetate cards remain more of a novelty than a gold-standard. But that's just my $0.02!
Agree. My theory is that cellulose acetate was the only viable plastic back in 1935 when KEM introduced the waterproof plastic playing card to mimic the handling of paper. I don't think they ever chose it with the intention of it being "best in class" over other plastics. (only paper). It's lingered on but it's days seem numbered. PVC has taken over and is probably cheaper, more manufacturable, greater supply to the point where CA playing card stock production just isn't worth continuing in spite of the slightly better feel.
I'm not even sure if USPCC even wants to continue the KEM line. At $60/setup, the consumer market is dead. Maybe they only want to be a niche player making sweetheart/volume deals with high profile poker rooms. Even though I hate Copag cards, they've nailed it with marketing, worldwide distribution, variety at a decent price point.
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All of the evidence suggests that you are correct with respect to both Kem and Copag. It'll be interesting to see how parent company Cartamundi plays this over the next few years. Personally, my only major gripe with Copag is that outrageous smell which seems to linger for weeks on end. But I'm not even sure whether all Copags (meaning the ones produced in Brazil versus those produced in Belgium) suffer from that or not. I know some folks have run into issues with Copag ink fading after a while, but thankfully I have never run into that myself (although admittedly mine haven't seen a whole lot of action).
drdr
Flush
I've not owned Modiano Platinum, but was very interested if they had a reputation for not bowing.
But I have owned about 10 setups of Kem. Every single one of the 20 decks bowed. Typically that started as soon as they were opened. Bowing continued to worsen over time, despite really trying all the rituals people recommend. Done old decks the bow is 1+ cm at each end.
Unless Modiano Platinum is somehow different from Kem I'm struggling to accept that bowing is linked to bad batches.
These are Modiano Platinum with jumbo index that were purchased new-in-box just a few months ago in September 2024. Please note that these cards have never seen felt and have only been shuffled a few times by yours truly and absolutely no one else. Additionally, I keep them stored in a special area away from any sources of heat, cold, light, and moisture which contains nothing but other playing cards and a few dozen desiccants.
And yet these cards clearly have a little bit of a concave bow which has been present since I first opened the package a few months ago. In fact, I originally thought that only the red deck was bowed before... but looking at them again now I can clearly see that the blue deck is indeed similarly bowed.
Now listen, this bowing isn't really a huge deal to me personally. And none of my poker buddies are hardcore enough where they'd give much of a crap about a tiny bit of bowing either. I mean hell... at our games we tend to play with a $20 buy in LOL. So I'd have absolutely no problem bringing this Modiano Platinum setup to a game with my crew. But the fact remains that decks of brand new, expensive, and supposedly top of the line plastic playing cards should remain pristine for a good long while... they certainly shouldn't start getting deformed before a consumer even gets to use them.
The issue with bowing therefore is definitely not exclusive to Kem. Nor is it size-related because these Modiano are poker sized cards while my Kems that bowed are all bridge sized. So it sure seems to me like the common denominator (and therefore guilty culprit) is probably the cellulose acetate material.
Phyffe
Two Pair
Bikishu,
I don't have much of a problem with our empirical failure rate of 8.33%.
Why? Because, as I said these cards are better than practically any other if you don't look at price. And if we agree on 8.33% being bad, then converse of that is over 90% of the time these are superior to COPAGs and almost any other PVC deck.
(OK, maybe not the Dal Negro Freedom X's which I cherish, but as you point out they are unobtanium now and others say Fourniers, to which I would grudgingly agree, after which I would say that while maybe not unobtainable, are darn hard to find in the US, much less to a guy in the Philippines)
I also have a deck of Angel acetates. They warped rather quickly. I notice that all Bridge size decks, whether Cellulose or PVC will bow faster than poker size, kind of makes sense, I guess.
I agree with you regarding the KEMs. I really am not going to buy another setup. Perhaps I am lucky but I've never opened a Modiano Platinum setup "pre-warped" so to speak. I would thus submit that Modiano has had equal or better luck marketing them. The mere fact that so many of us are looking for them is an indicator of that.
From experience living in the tropics, I would share with you what I consider best practices though - Storing plastic cards in the 2 card setup box is not ideal, especially for acetates. Once I open them I get old Bicycle single-deck boxes and store them there. I also store all my decks in a sealed container with a few dessicant gel packs.
For unopened decks I store them in a box with several dessicant containers as well.
I strongly feel humidity is the enemy here.
I understand where you are coming from when you say Acetates are a novelty, or perhaps an obsolete technology considering how long its been around. I would point out though that it's quite probable that these different manufacturers probably have different methods and formulation and suppliers for their raw materials, so while you are probably right that Acetates have a bowing issue, you probably will get different results with different brands, sizes and even atmospherics.
However, I deal in maybe half of the games I play and I value decks that shuffle well and softly, that glide well and last a reasonably long time. I take lots of Vitamin B complex to avoid finger joint pain that's come around in the last few years (I strongly recommend it. It really works).
If I had a dealer for all my games I would buy some cheap China PVC cards and replace them with a brand new one every single time one of the players is on a losing streak and asks for a change in deck =)
I would suggest though if you want a good feeling deck for less money, you may want to try Desjgn decks. They tick all the boxes and I consider them the best value cards all around.
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Phyffe
Two Pair
I can say with confidence that Modiano Platinum won't have as much quality issues than Kem Arrow. Will Modiano bow? Yes. But in my experience, these cards will usually bow just a little and then fade before the bowing becomes too much of an issue.
Will cards like COPAG last longer? In my experience, not really. COPAGs bow and fade. I've had these decks last shorter than Platinums.
I actually have setups of all of the brands that you named. At this point I think some of the only major brands of plastic playing cards that I don't have in my collection yet are Statesman out of Australia (which I do have coming soon), Grimaud out of France, and Trefl out of Poland.
And yes, I would 1,000% agree that Desjgn is my current reigning champion of the plastic card arena. In particular, the Desjgn bridge sized cards on Dal Negro stock are overall my very favorite playing cards. I keep a setup of those sitting on my desk literally 24/7/365 so that if I ever get the urge to shuffle cards while watching TV they are right there. To me Desjgn cards just have the perfect blend of being stiff yet still soft, snappy yet still flexible, textured but not like sandpaper, and a traditional cut so they faro weave like a dream. Plus the Desjgn artwork is nice, the prices are fair, and historically they have offered a decent variety of styles. I actually recommend Desjgn cards to all of my poker friends, and I've even given away setups to a couple buddies as gifts. As far as I'm concerned the only problem with Desjgn is that almost all of his stuff is out of stock these days LOL. But my understanding is he'll be launching new cards relatively soon, so that's great.
As for the card storage & maintenance aspect, yeah I definitely do keep a whole bunch of desiccants in the container that I store all of my cards in. I am totally with you in believing that moisture, light, and temperature extremes are the three most destructive elements for playing cards... just as they are for other things such as perfumes & colognes, medications, etc. I like your idea about transferring the acetate cards into single-deck tuck boxes to kind of compress them further... I never thought of that. What I have always done instead was to put cut cards on top of each deck and then coins on top of the cut cards to kind of weigh the whole deck down a bit and compress it. But I think your idea might work better so I may give that a try at some point. Thanks for the idea!
AlbinoDragon
Flush
Anymore card preference is like your political leaning of the minute.
I refuse to be a slave to babying Kem's. Bought them new. Bought them casino used. This homey don't have time to get that particular piece to act like 95% of the other cards I've had. Too much like work for a pretty side-piece. Yeah, "but just like that casinos..." and "jule tlike the paper cards I grew up with" and "the bext shuffing cards I've used"... but when you're 50/50 on a set surviving a normal game and returning as you opened them... I'd rather take a swift kick to the nards than try to maintain that.
JDesjgn. Love what you've done, thank you for being an "independent" card supplier, but I can't stand (and my players can't tolerate) the off-normal pips and suits. I've had compaints mid-game that required a setup change to make the masses happy. Also, a bit stiff to hand-shuffle. See the addendum below.
Faded Spade... you can GTFO. I'm not a casino with funding for a web-stream and mechanical shuffler. I played with these last month at RIA-III. Betwen your customer service "issues", overall card consistency and the stiffness of the stock you fell like you need to use (as well as other), I was over you the first time I used your cards. I still have a wound that's heaing on one of my fingers from having to hand-shuffle your cards last month. I foreced a deck-switch at a table I was hosting there because I didn't want to deal with your cards anymore.
The Platiums are nice. I bought sevearal casino new setups from a @TheChipRoom sale back on the Blue Void. Loved them for half a game until they stared picking up dark spots of who knows what on the edges and faces. Made for easier unintentional marking of cards than I would have expected. I still have maybe a dozen unused setups as a result.
Maybe I'm just a card snob. Maybe I'm realy particular. Maybe I'm not 100% sober and a little fighty as I type this, but I think there are beter options avalable out there. Yout might have to do some honest work and apply effort to find and acquire, but I believe there are better cards out there than 90% of the groupthink says are the best.
I love my Dal Negro Grand Slam cards (thank you @surfik for the latest batch I bought), and have always been a fan of the Fournier 2826 cards. IMO, the latter are the best cards. Hard stop. New paragraph. They're that good. Perfect stiffnes, no curling or warping, great to shufle with just the right ressitance. Easily my favorite cards
Honestly, it's a shame they aren't easier to source in North America.
[Sorry for the rant. I'm far from sober, but the card "discussion" bothers me most of the time, and the beers out with friends this evening have made me a bit more spicy than my usual self.]
I refuse to be a slave to babying Kem's. Bought them new. Bought them casino used. This homey don't have time to get that particular piece to act like 95% of the other cards I've had. Too much like work for a pretty side-piece. Yeah, "but just like that casinos..." and "jule tlike the paper cards I grew up with" and "the bext shuffing cards I've used"... but when you're 50/50 on a set surviving a normal game and returning as you opened them... I'd rather take a swift kick to the nards than try to maintain that.
JDesjgn. Love what you've done, thank you for being an "independent" card supplier, but I can't stand (and my players can't tolerate) the off-normal pips and suits. I've had compaints mid-game that required a setup change to make the masses happy. Also, a bit stiff to hand-shuffle. See the addendum below.
Faded Spade... you can GTFO. I'm not a casino with funding for a web-stream and mechanical shuffler. I played with these last month at RIA-III. Betwen your customer service "issues", overall card consistency and the stiffness of the stock you fell like you need to use (as well as other), I was over you the first time I used your cards. I still have a wound that's heaing on one of my fingers from having to hand-shuffle your cards last month. I foreced a deck-switch at a table I was hosting there because I didn't want to deal with your cards anymore.
The Platiums are nice. I bought sevearal casino new setups from a @TheChipRoom sale back on the Blue Void. Loved them for half a game until they stared picking up dark spots of who knows what on the edges and faces. Made for easier unintentional marking of cards than I would have expected. I still have maybe a dozen unused setups as a result.
Maybe I'm just a card snob. Maybe I'm realy particular. Maybe I'm not 100% sober and a little fighty as I type this, but I think there are beter options avalable out there. Yout might have to do some honest work and apply effort to find and acquire, but I believe there are better cards out there than 90% of the groupthink says are the best.
I love my Dal Negro Grand Slam cards (thank you @surfik for the latest batch I bought), and have always been a fan of the Fournier 2826 cards. IMO, the latter are the best cards. Hard stop. New paragraph. They're that good. Perfect stiffnes, no curling or warping, great to shufle with just the right ressitance. Easily my favorite cards
Honestly, it's a shame they aren't easier to source in North America.
[Sorry for the rant. I'm far from sober, but the card "discussion" bothers me most of the time, and the beers out with friends this evening have made me a bit more spicy than my usual self.]
Phyffe
Two Pair
You see, this is why I keep coming back to this forum.
This is the only place where people don't think its weird I have multiple decks of multiple card brands ALL over my home and office.
This is the only place where people don't raise an eyebrow when every other poker night there's a new set of chips to get used to.......
I have a Trefl setup but not the Statesman or Grimaud yet.
I'm glad you share my enthusiasm for Desjgns, my only niggling complaint is I like the jumbo font used by Modiano more. At least it's better than Copag.
Cheers!
Every single deck made out of cellulose acetate bows with time. It‘s normal behaviour for this material.
A friend of mine works at the federal archives and they handle a lot of acetate stuff.
Light, heat and humidity are the biggest issues.
No joke, but the fridge is probably the best place to storage acetate cards.
Acetate are the best cards as long as they‘re flat, imo.
I use my decks now and go for PVC in future (again).
Hope there‘s another product get used for cards soon… More durable than paper, but less plastic than PVC.
A friend of mine works at the federal archives and they handle a lot of acetate stuff.
Light, heat and humidity are the biggest issues.
No joke, but the fridge is probably the best place to storage acetate cards.
Acetate are the best cards as long as they‘re flat, imo.
I use my decks now and go for PVC in future (again).
Hope there‘s another product get used for cards soon… More durable than paper, but less plastic than PVC.
Great. Now "card fridges" are going to become a thing on PCF as the latest must-have accessory.
AlbinoDragon
Flush
This would bring a new meaning to a "cold deck".
Hahahaa - a real ‚cold deck‘!
Just don‘t let them in the trunk of your car during summer. Don‘t let the sun shine directly on the chip/card cases.
In Florida f.ex. a silica gel bag can help reduce moisture in the box while storage.
Just don‘t let them in the trunk of your car during summer. Don‘t let the sun shine directly on the chip/card cases.
In Florida f.ex. a silica gel bag can help reduce moisture in the box while storage.
Phyffe
Two Pair
No joke - Does anyone know how to store items in a fridge without getting them wet?sealed plastic bag?
Seal them tightly in a ziplock bag, or place them in well sealed Tupperware. They should be fine.
Fuck it I'm going to go do it now for science.
If your goal is low temp and low humidity use the freezer vs the fridge.
Updating the science experiment.
If you are really trying this you might want to "double bag it" so to speak. I'd probably put them in some type of freezer-safe airtight container first, and then put that container inside one of the freezer-strength Ziplock bags. Then - and only then - would I feel even remotely decent about putting cards in the freezer. But I look forward to seeing how it goes for you. LOL
drdr
Flush
CUORE3
Two Pair
These cards are still produced I believe
Pulled them out of the freezer this evening. No noticeable issues. They were cold as hell for a minute. I was mostly worried about condensation, but no issues. Shuffled for an hour playing drinking games with the wife.
Feel free to use any of my data as you see fit.
Feel free to use any of my data as you see fit.
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