Anyone ever seen this? Paulson error mold?

Josh Kifer

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Well out of the 300 these four are the only LCVs and all have the dots. They definitely feel just like a Paulson. I would bet money they are genuine.
I would think I would have noticed, all those chips milled the same. There was no difference, so I gotta think they are real.
 

BGinGA

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Very well may have been an injection mold originally made for Paulson for a reasearch project, and later converted to compression mold cup use.
 

GianThaMan

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Very well may have been an injection mold originally made for Paulson for a reasearch project, and later converted to compression mold cup use.
Based on what I've seen of injection molds, I think this is impossible. The injection point would have extended out further from the hat, not to mention the molds themselves are generally rectangular and thinner than mold cups. Also, I don't believe that Paulson would do this, even if they could, as it would probably cost more to convert the cups than to make a new one, and it would just look bad. I think it's more likely there was a miscommunication or an error in the mold etching's design.
 

BGinGA

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Based on what I've seen of injection molds, I think this is impossible. The injection point would have extended out further from the hat, not to mention the molds themselves are generally rectangular and thinner than mold cups. Also, I don't believe that Paulson would do this, even if they could, as it would probably cost more to convert the cups than to make a new one, and it would just look bad. I think it's more likely there was a miscommunication or an error in the mold etching's design.
Not to be argumentative, but.....

I don't agree. Injection points and trees can certainly be machined off (and/or added), and mold cups are typically made using hardened hobbs (allowing additional cups to be made when they wear out).

The unicorn mold is just one example of a mold that was converted from original injection plastic to compression clay use (and back again). It's definitely possible.
 

GianThaMan

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Not to be argumentative, but.....

I don't agree. Injection points and trees can certainly be machined off (and/or added), and mold cups are typically made using hardened hobbs (allowing additional cups to be made when they wear out).

The unicorn mold is just one example of a mold that was converted from original injection plastic to compression clay use (and back again). It's definitely possible.
Is there any documentation that the unicorn mold was converted to an injection mold and back again? Other than the fact that there is a unicorn clay mold and a unicorn plastic mold, which I would assume just means that the design was copied into different molds.
 

justincarothers

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More photos

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72o

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Not to be argumentative, but.....

I don't agree. Injection points and trees can certainly be machined off (and/or added), and mold cups are typically made using hardened hobbs (allowing additional cups to be made when they wear out).

The unicorn mold is just one example of a mold that was converted from original injection plastic to compression clay use (and back again). It's definitely possible.

Is there any documentation that the unicorn mold was converted to an injection mold and back again? Other than the fact that there is a unicorn clay mold and a unicorn plastic mold, which I would assume just means that the design was copied into different molds.

I've never handled a unicorn clay. Rarest of the rare? I'm guessing quite old, pre-1960, and very limited run?
As Dave mentioned, these seem to be an example of clay unicorns. They definitely feel clay to me and unlike any plastic unicorn I’ve handled.

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GianThaMan

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ReallyGoodUsername

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So what were these pre-mill?

Wonder how rare these are... fairly if it’s only been seen twice?
 

GianThaMan

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72o

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Just read the first quote. It’s interesting, but doesn’t say anything about it being converted back into a compression mold. I think it’s doable to go compression —> injection, but injection —> seems impossible. Even then, I still think it’s more likely they’re just different molds.
It was an injection mold first right? And then experimented with trying to make it a compression mold. And then converted back to its current injection mold. This is how I understood it anyway.
 

GianThaMan

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It was an injection mold first right? And then experimented with trying to make it a compression mold. And then converted back to its current injection mold. This is how I understood it anyway.
I don’t think Burt Co ever made injection molded chips, so I just assumed that he converted them to injection molds when he started Chipco, and they weren’t injection molds first.
 

BGinGA

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Is there any documentation that the unicorn mold was converted to an injection mold and back again? Other than the fact that there is a unicorn clay mold and a unicorn plastic mold, which I would assume just means that the design was copied into different molds.
I've never handled a unicorn clay. Rarest of the rare? I'm guessing quite old, pre-1960, and very limited run?
Burt Co. was purchased by John Kendall (former General Manager) in 1985 after Alonzo Burt died. He converted the unicorn injection mold and produced clay chips with it for a brief period of time; he also converted both Horsehead molds (HHR and HHL) to injection-molds and produced manufacturing samples distributed to salesmen, but no production chips were ever made. Kendall eventually sold the Burt assets to Jim Blanchard (former Burt Co. Production Manager) in 1988. The HHR mold was converted back to a compression mold and is still in service today at CPC.

Kendall also started Chipco International, which created and produced ceramic-style chips, along with plastic unicorn mold chips (after converting the mold back to injection). The company was disbanded and assets sold in 2013 prior to being him being convicted for multiple tax felonies.

All documented a number of places, including on David Spragg's site and on the Museum of Gaming History site (articles by Gene Trimble and others).
 

GianThaMan

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Ok, with all that evidence presented, I can’t deny it’s possible that injection molds can be converted to compression molds. That being said, I still don’t think that’s the case with these Paulsons, mainly just because there is no evidence to support that it is the case. I’ll stick with my original assessment that it was a mistake in the design of the mold.
 

BGinGA

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Ok, with all that evidence presented, I can’t deny it’s possible that injection molds can be converted to compression molds. That being said, I still don’t think that’s the case with these Paulsons, mainly just because there is no evidence to support that it is the case. I’ll stick with my original assessment that it was a mistake in the design of the mold.
With two port nubs, a converted injection mold (or mold converted to injection and then back) makes much more sense than a design error to me.

If it were a fabrication error (and how does that happen if specs are in hand?), the mold would be rejected at customer receipt inspection.

And I don't see Paulson engineers mistakenly adding something that symmetrical to the design drawings for a compression mold, which to that point, had never been included.
 

Colquhoun

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I'm not entirely sure how the cups for Paulson molding machines were made...were they cast? If so, is it possible that an injection molded pattern "chip" was used to make castings for the cups...and one of the cups was incorrectly cast using an incorrect or unfinished injection molded pattern "chip"?
 

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Burt Co. was purchased by John Kendall (former General Manager) in 1985 after Alonzo Burt died. He converted the unicorn injection mold and produced clay chips with it for a brief period of time; he also converted both Horsehead molds (HHR and HHL) to injection-molds and produced manufacturing samples distributed to salesmen, but no production chips were ever made. Kendall eventually sold the Burt assets to Jim Blanchard (former Burt Co. Production Manager) in 1988. The HHR mold was converted back to a compression mold and is still in service today at CPC.

Kendall also started Chipco International, which created and produced ceramic-style chips, along with plastic unicorn mold chips (after converting the mold back to injection). The company was disbanded and assets sold in 2013 prior to being him being convicted for multiple tax felonies.

All documented a number of places, including on David Spragg's site and on the Museum of Gaming History site (articles by Gene Trimble and others).
795B027E-13E8-4E5F-95B4-8EBC3589C119.gif
 

ekricket

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Could it be a a canceled hub/die/mold that was mistakenly misused? I’m sure these wear out, and they probably have a way to try and make sure worn ones aren’t used. They drill holes in everything else.
 

BGinGA

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I'm not entirely sure how the cups for Paulson molding machines were made...were they cast? If so, is it possible that an injection molded pattern "chip" was used to make castings for the cups...and one of the cups was incorrectly cast using an incorrect or unfinished injection molded pattern "chip"?
Pretty sure not cast. Machined billet or forging, at minimum.
 

BGinGA

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Could it be a a canceled hub/die/mold that was mistakenly misused? I’m sure these wear out, and they probably have a way to try and make sure worn ones aren’t used. They drill holes in everything else.
Interesting theory, although one would think that if driiling for cancelation purposes, a simple hole in the center of the cup would be more prominently visible than two small holes in separate raised hat features.
 

ekricket

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Interesting theory, although one would think that if driiling for cancelation purposes, a simple hole in the center of the cup would be more prominently visible than two small holes in separate raised hat features.
You could then just put a label over any imperfection in the the center. No more cancellation.
How about all you guys with inside Paulson info and contacts ask them about it? There’s folks on here that drop names regularly like they have Paulson people on speed dial.
 

GianThaMan

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You could then just put a label over any imperfection in the the center. No more cancellation.
How about all you guys with inside Paulson info and contacts ask them about it? There’s folks on here that drop names regularly like they have Paulson people on speed dial.
Still, you could just drill a hole that cuts through the entire hat, making it completely unusable. It would take a long time to notice if the mold just had those two tiny holes.
 

BGinGA

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Still, you could just drill a hole that cuts through the entire hat, making it completely unusable. It would take a long time to notice if the mold just had those two tiny holes.
You can do that to a chip, but you can't do that to a mold or cup.
 
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