Any way to unwarp old KEMs? (3 Viewers)

[NotRealNameNoSir]

It has to do with the stock. The plastic comes in rolls. When the stock gets closer to the core, the cards made from it tends to warp more.

Where does this fact come from? Interesting, I hadnt heard that.

 

[JFG]

Where does this fact come from? Interesting, I hadnt heard that.

I used to work in the print industry and this was a common problem with all stock.

 

[LeLe]

It has to do with the stock. The plastic comes in rolls. When the stock gets closer to the core, the cards made from it tends to warp more.

I used to work in the print industry and this was a common problem with all stock.

I seconded that. I also used to work in the printing industry but I only connect the dots after @JFG mentioned it, it makes a lot of sense for a potential cause of warping

 

[allforcharity]

But then this 'end of the roll warp' should affect all.plastic cards in the industry, yet they don't.

 

[Colquhoun]

But then this 'end of the roll warp' should affect all.plastic cards in the industry, yet they don't.

Agreed. KEMs are cellulose acetate, and while they do have properties of many plastics, they have some unique issues as well. One of them is warping due to their environment.
Casino dice are also made from cellulose acetate, and even THEY warp over time:

 

[JFG]

But then this 'end of the roll warp' should affect all.plastic cards in the industry, yet they don't.

They do, but not like KEMs. They definitely have issues with warping. In fact all of them will will warp if not properly handled. The meterial and texture makes them more prone to it. I just noticed some KEMs warped more than others, preUSPC and after.

 

[Colquhoun]

Strangely, my first setup of Copags back in 2005-2006-ish arrived with both decks more warped than any warped KEM cards I’ve seen. Contacted customer service and they sent a replacement setup via DHL from Brazil.
But I don’t think I’ve heard people ever complain about warping Copags.

 

[drdr]

KEM pron?
Seems to warp in both directions, not sure how that fits with end of roll theory. Maybe is a combination of factors.
Love their feel but I think I'm done with them.

 

[surfik]

I am done with my experiment.

i have kept two sets of Kem under heavy books for over a year. Bothe sets were warped. Onen mint bridge size club back, one heavly used arrow backs.
After taking them from under books they improved significantly but after two weeks they keept coming back more and more to "warped" state.
I am not publiisshing any photos because I forgot to make "befor" shot plus my camera is poor quality.

My lesson from experiment:
- one, you can improve warped Kem but it takes time
-second, maintanance is a key, personaly I am about to get cut cards from Spinettis
-thirdly, even Kems are not perfect, honestly maybe you can find cards with better quality/price ratio, but if you are Rounders fan there are no substitiute for Arrows

 

[drdr]

I am done with my experiment.

i have kept two sets of Kem under heavy books for over a year. Bothe sets were warped. Onen mint bridge size club back, one heavly used arrow backs.
After taking them from under books they improved significantly but after two weeks they keept coming back more and more to "warped" state.
I am not publiisshing any photos because I forgot to make "befor" shot plus my camera is poor quality.

My lesson from experiment:
- one, you can improve warped Kem but it takes time
-second, maintanance is a key, personaly I am about to get cut cards from Spinettis
-thirdly, even Kems are not perfect, honestly maybe you can find cards with better quality/price ratio, but if you are Rounders fan there are no substitiute for Arrows

Thank you for your contribution to science. Found similar results as you.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

I recently bought a set of Nexgen pros off Facebook, partially because the whole set was $50 and came with 2 decks of KEM arrow cards. One is sealed in the platic, and one was used. I couldnt tell from the photo online that the open deck is majorly warped, with a big curve through the whole deck. Is there any way to "unwarp" KEMs or is that deck simply bound for the trash?

Sorry to hear this, but I avoid Kems like the plague because of warping.

This is the only thing that I found works...

Spoiler: ...Proper Kem Storage

 

[QuadNines]

I've told this story on PCF several times - and so as to not repeat myself for those who've read it / laughed at the expanded version before, whatever you do, DON'T put warped Kem's into their box with paper towels packed in, with dishes then set on top - and whatever you do, do NOT then put all of that into the microwave, thinking "heating up these warped plastic pieces of crap in a flattened state will make them STAY flat" - because it won't. In fact, after only about 30 seconds, your warped Kem's will now become blackened with soot, start to melt, and give off a noxious burning plastic smell that will linger in your house for days. You've been warned.

 

[davefr]

Found some of my old KEM decks. Very warped. I found heating them with a heat gun on low, you can feel them become completely pliable. I heat a card for about 20-30 seconds on a flat surface, then carefully slide the card into the middle of a heavy book. The cards actually set after about 20-30 minutes.

Results are the cards are much better, even playable and can be shuffled normally. No shrink to a single card. I think I more refined my technique after the heating, they'd come out even better. Hope this helps.

*Note: my decks were from 02-04.

Please report back in a few weeks. I can unwarp KEM's but after a few weeks they go right back to their warped state. Maybe your heating method changes their structure. Time will tell.

 

[NVFlip]

That's a feature, not a bug. They're made incredibly fragile to punish those that don't pack them and keep them in perfect condition: not too humid, not too dry, not to hot, not too cold, not too tight or loose, upside down, with a dealer button on it, and say the rosary while you're at it.

So what would be the Goldilock's Zone? I have a setup that's been in storage since the 90s? Honestly not sure I can still even find them.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

So what would be the Goldilock's Zone? I have a setup that's been in storage since the 90s? Honestly not sure I can still even find them.

I'm the wrong person to ask, sorry man. My card dealer once gripped the deck a little too tight so my KEMs are tacos.

 

[Old State]

You would think with this massive warping issue Kem would have been out of business decades ago. Yet they are the overwhelming choice of poker rooms in casinos in AC, Vegas, and elsewhere. Being that I’ve NEVER seen any cards other than Kems at a cash game in any casino in Vegas, AC, Boston, and PA, I would imagine they are being used in 90% of poker rooms.

Ive only seen other brands on YouTube vlogs at small non casino poker rooms around the country. Also understand that cards used on televised poker are payed product placement and are usually not what they are using in their actual card room

I have 12 individual decks of Kems dating back to 2003 that are completely and totally flat. Just stored them with a cut card on top and later with a dealer button for extra insurance. I went to this after I had one setup take a mean bow …but after leaving them out on a table in an unfinished basement for a couple days. This is a minuscule effort to maintain by FAR the best feeling cards in the industry.

Kems are definitely the most susceptible to bowing but so are other cards. I know this because I own so many other brands. (My Cartamundi acetates took a slight bow even being stored with this technique).

I own so many because I was trying to find a replacement for Kems that felt as good but didn’t have the chance of bowing. After owning over dozen different brands and almost 40 setups I’ve never found one. Kems are simply the best feeling cards by a very significant margin.

At $29 a setup they are not worth it…but no card is. I bought all mine on Amazon sales I found and never paid more than $23.

Some recent live stack pics from Borgata, Wynn LV, Wynn Boston, Bellagio, and Aria over the last couple months. All showing Kems

 

[drdr]

You would think with this massive warping issue Kem would have been out of business decades ago. Yet they are the overwhelming choice of poker rooms in casinos in AC, Vegas, and elsewhere. Being that I’ve NEVER seen any cards other than Kems at a cash game in any casino in Vegas, AC, Boston, and PA, I would imagine they are being used in 90% of poker rooms.

Ive only seen other brands on YouTube vlogs at small non casino poker rooms around the country. Also understand that cards used on televised poker are payed product placement and are usually not what they are using in their actual card room

I have 12 individual decks of Kems dating back to 2003 that are completely and totally flat. Just stored them with a cut card on top and later with a dealer button for extra insurance. I went to this after I had one setup take a mean bow …but after leaving them out on a table in an unfinished basement for a couple days. This is a minuscule effort to maintain by FAR the best feeling cards in the industry.

Kems are definitely the most susceptible to bowing but so are other cards. I know this because I own so many other brands. (My Cartamundi acetates took a slight bow even being stored with this technique).

I own so many because I was trying to find a replacement for Kems that felt as good but didn’t have the chance of bowing. After owning over dozen different brands and almost 40 setups I’ve never found one. Kems are simply the best feeling cards by a very significant margin.

At $29 a setup they are not worth it…but no card is. I bought all mine on Amazon sales I found and never paid more than $23.

Some recent live stack pics from Borgata, Wynn LV, Wynn Boston, Bellagio, and Aria over the last couple months. All showing Kems

I also love their feel, not found any card better for that aspect. I guess the choice is about tolerance of the bowing. I tolerated it for 15 years but am now searching for an alternative.

I can see bowing in three of the pics you posted. The fourth I think I can see a very minor bow but not sure. Likely these casinos aren't keeping the decks in play too long.

All your decks being dead flat seems... miraculous. Could be true. But perhaps you aren't seeing the bow on your decks that is there?
Oh, do you live somewhere that is a cold climate? That may help you decks stay flat. Is hot and often humid where I live... my KEMS stored in the same manner as you do still bow and obviously.

 

[Old State]

All your decks being dead flat seems... miraculous. Could be true. But perhaps you aren't seeing the bow on your decks that is there?
Oh, do you live somewhere that is a cold climate? That may help you decks stay flat. Is hot and often humid where I live... my KEMS stored in the same manner as you do still bow and obviously.

it’s 1000% true. I’ve share photos numerous times. I live outside of Philly and get four seasons. All my cards are kept in my finished basement. As I said earlier I store them upside down with a cut card on top. About 3-4 years ago I started putting dealer buttons on top as well for extra insurance. They are all completely a totally flat. Their age is between 2003 and 2019.

The casino cards sometimes have a slight bow…but so do the Gemaco Superflex cards that are sometimes used in AC for tournaments. Probably has just as much to do with them being bent up 100s of times by the players. If you watch a lot of poker vlogs you will see non Kems in some card rooms (usually outside of AC and Vegas). Many of them are bowed up.

I see you live in Australia. I would also factor in the conditions the cards go through to get there. I actually don’t order many playing cards when it’s hot because I don’t want them sitting in the heat on my porch or in my mailbox. I’ve had two setups of PVC cards warp from the heat when shipping.

 

[Old State]

This was a pain but here they are….twelve decks of Kems kept perfectly flat for years!

 

[drdr]

it’s 1000% true.

I'm genuinely jealous.

As I said earlier I store them upside down with a cut card on top. About 3-4 years ago I started putting dealer buttons on top as well for extra insurance.

I do the same, but didn't do much unless I also put a big-ass book on top of the box to force the button to push down on the cards. They're still warped, likely from time in play.

I see you live in Australia. I would also factor

Absolutely suspect this is a factor. Though every deck I've received has been perfectly flat out of the wrapper. After a few hours of play... warped.

 

[drdr]

This was a pain but here they are….twelve decks of Kems kept perfectly flat for years!

View attachment 1258086

Very cool vid. My jealousy reinforced.
I can see some very slight bowing on some decks, but honestly would be thrilled if mine matched yours.
Man I miss the old hard plastic covers. The hard card boxes they come in now needs that heavy book on it to reduce warping.

 

[Old State]

Very cool vid. My jealousy reinforced.
I can see some very slight bowing on some decks, but honestly would be thrilled if mine matched yours.
Man I miss the old hard plastic covers. The hard card boxes they come in now needs that heavy book on it to reduce warping.

Any slight bowing you see is an optical illusion or a distortion from the lens being so close. I assure you none of them are bowed. I pulled the camera back prematurely before the last deck and it maybe looks a little bowed… But it’s not.

 

[NickyT]

Here's an update on my heat gun experiment with old warped KEMs. I took a warped replacement order card from the deck. Heated it up to pliable point, let it cool and then reheated it and tried to get as flat/playable as possible.

1st Photo is original/unheated warped condition (see edge rising up)

2nd photo is after heating and example of how pliable the cards can become

3rd photo is the 2nd heating of the wavy card. You can see how flat I was able to get it. (Note: after hearing wavy card to a flat state, I placed it under a small battery for 5-10 minutes)

 

[drdr]

Any signs of trauma to the card? Any marks that could make it identifiable?

 

[NickyT]

No marks on the card and I was looking for anything that might have alerted the print on the card.

 

[drdr]

Ooh, new science request. Can measure with callipers and see if height, width, thickness changed?

 

[NickyT]

Ooh, new science request. Can measure with callipers and see if height, width, thickness changed?

I don't have any calipers to measure before and after, but I did this heat gun method to 3 separate decks and all 3 are the same size. When I get a chance I can compare them to a KEM unheated deck.

 

[dobdob]

Nothing to add but KEMs r bad

 

[allforcharity]

That much heat applied to a card can't really be good for it.

 

[AlbinoDragon]

Still seems like a lot of effort to "rescue" what is already a high-maintenance product.