Tourney Any advice to improve our tournaments? (2 Viewers)

[Sparkynutz]

I started playing a little more regularly with a different group of 8-12 guys (mostly related to each other in one way or another) and was wondering if anyone else understands their choice of starting stack count structure. I am planning a larger tournament with 20-30 guys and trying to decide if adopting their structure is the way to go since they will make up a large portion of the guys or if it could be improved on slightly for the larger tournament.

This group likes to keep it cheap playing a few tournaments through the evening always $5 buy in.

They use starting stacks of $505 because they used to play with cash as the chips and lots of penny's but chip up through the game with dollars at rebuys. They stuck to the structure because it seemed to work for them and starting stacks/rebuys were easy to count out.

chip breakdown-
$1 x5
$5 x5
$10 x5
$25 x5
$100 x3
$5 buy in with unlimited rebuys up to the $20-40 blind

The blinds increase every 15 min up to 8 minutes if we all agree on faster for later games.
$1-2
$2-4
$3-6
$4-8
$5-10
$10-20
$15-30
$20-40
$50-100
$75-150
$200-400
$300-600
$500-1000
$750-1500
$1k-2k
game is usually over by then or well before.
They pay out between 3 places for 8 to 10 guys and 5 places for 11+

3 of these guys came along last time my buddy hosted but they didn't care for his $10 and $20 tournaments with larger starting stacks.
$1x20
$5x20
$10x10
$25x10
$100x5

To me this structure was nice not making change all the time, but became tedious counting all the lower denom chips and more chipping up needed.

I am wondering what the best structure would be for the larger group of guys that would be easy to manage yet make the most people happy.

I would like to keep buy in at $5 yet incorporate a bounty either $1 or $5
Late shows and rebuys same starting stack amount but give highest denomination chips to get change from table.

Also should rebuys repick seats?
Each player that busts puts seat card back into hat?

Lastly if I get more than 3 tables of guys I'll need to rent a venue, and may do anyways just for ease of setup, parking and cleanup.
Theres a very nice place close by with ample parking, huge full kitchen, tables and chairs 3 bathrooms that rents for $75 a day.
Im pretty sure I can't legally charge to cover this cost, but do you think a tip jar would be the best way to go about helping me recoup the cost?
What do you guys think

 

[MikesDad]

@BGinGA

 

[Eriks]

Too many denoms. The 10 is abundant. Sweet spot is probably somewhere in between those breakdowns. How many chips in total in the set?

 

[Sparkynutz]

Too many denoms. The 10 is abundant. Sweet spot is probably somewhere in between those breakdowns. How many chips in total in the set?

Between my chips and the other guy that hosts we have same chips and enough for 50+ people easy.

 

[Eriks]

Between my chips and the other guy that hosts we have same chips and enough for 50+ people easy.

Meant how many you have of each denom. Hard to give suggestions without knowing what we have to work with

 

[Sparkynutz]

Maybe not 50 guys but after a quick look approximately-
$1x1500
$5x800
$10x800
$25x800
$100x400
$500x200
$1k x200

 

[Eriks]

Nice, you’re pretty unrestricted there. Myself I like T25 based tourneys T10k or T20k with 25/100/500/1000/5000

Starting stacks 12/12/5/6/(2)

 

[Sparkynutz]

I did a bunch of breakdowns on paper and kinda leaning towards this breakdown-
$1x10
$5x10
$10x4
$25x4
$100x3
or
$1x10
$5x8
$10x5
$25x8
$100x2
or skip the 10s
$1x10
$5x13
$25x9
$100x2

Either way starting stacks would be an even $500 making rebuys with a single $500 chip easy

 

[Eriks]

Definitely skip the 10

 

[opengun]

How many hours total do you want to play for all three tournaments. With three tables my suggestion would be to run a T10k with an initial breakdown of (12/12/5/6) with 20 minutes blinds starting out 25/50. This structure will go over 4 hours, once people starting getting knocked out you can start up a cash game on the side.

 

[Sparkynutz]

3 hours per tournament tops. Last time We played 3 tournaments. 15 minute blinds for first two, 8 minute blinds with no rebuys for last one. First hand was dealt around 5:30pm and I left just after 11pm as 5th place of the 3rd game. I kept going all in every hand till I lost because I was tired and ready to go home. First game 1st and 2nd player chopped one being me. Second game it was down to another guy and me again. He didn't want to chop so I played every hand till I lost getting 2nd place.

 

[merkong]

We improved our tournaments by eliminating them and switching to a .10/.10 cash game. It was plenty live but have been running a .10/.20 game twice weekly now for about 4 months.

Best thing we ever did.

 

[Sparkynutz]

We improved our tournaments by eliminating them and switching to a .10/.10 cash game. It was plenty live but have been running a .10/.20 game twice weekly now for about 4 months.

Best thing we ever did.

That would be easier. We previously played 5c 10c cash games but also seemed to ruin the fun for many of the cash strapped players. If we played limit, it defeated the purpose for many of the other guys when finally getting a great hand not being able to play it any harder than a decent hand.

 

[upNdown]

chip breakdown-
$1 x5
$5 x5
$10 x5
$25 x5
$100 x3

I suspect you know this, but if you’re looking for validation, yeah, this is terrible. I think most people here would consider this borderline unplayable. You must be making change constantly.

Anyway, there are a ton of threads here discussing tournsment starting stacks so just do a little reading. But long story short, 5 of any denom (except the largest) isn’t enough, and 20 is way too much.

 

[Sparkynutz]

I suspect you know this, but if you’re looking for validation, yeah, this is terrible. I think most people here would consider this borderline unplayable. You must be making change constantly.

Anyway, there are a ton of threads here discussing tournsment starting stacks so just do a little reading. But long story short, 5 of any denom (except the largest) isn’t enough, and 20 is way too much.

I decided on-
$1x10
$5x13
$25x9
$100x2

I have 3x 10 row trays set up with chips ready to grab and play for 30 players.
Also a regular chip tray for chipping up stocked with
$25x20
$100x40
$500x20
$1k x20

I'm hoping this will work well and not get too much flak from the few guys that seem to think 5 of each is a better starting stack.
I just need to decide on on time or early bonus amount or not also bounty amount.
Any suggestions given the above starting stacks?

 

[Nine_high]

Maybe not 50 guys but after a quick look approximately-
$1x1500
$5x800
$10x800
$25x800
$100x400
$500x200
$1k x200

With that chipset I would think you can easily run 5+ tables, maybe even as many as 10 if you really stretched it.

I don't run a lot of tournaments myself anymore but I think a 10% on time bonus is reasonable and a bounty can be whatever you want usually I see 20-25% on top of the buy in.

 

[Sparkynutz]

May not be fancy but should get us by.
I just need to figure out Bounty chips.
Since I'm not using blue as $10 we'll use as 25c on the cash table along with teal as 5c then I can keep chips separate.
I did some rearranging and should have room for 3 full size tables plus a 5-6 player round table for cash games.

 

[merkong]

3 hours per tournament tops. Last time We played 3 tournaments. 15 minute blinds for first two, 8 minute blinds with no rebuys for last one. First hand was dealt around 5:30pm and I left just after 11pm as 5th place of the 3rd game. I kept going all in every hand till I lost because I was tired and ready to go home. First game 1st and 2nd player chopped one being me. Second game it was down to another guy and me again. He didn't want to chop so I played every hand till I lost getting 2nd place.

There’s just so many downs to tourneys… And, conversely, there are ups…

$20 buyin for a .10/.20 cash game is no different than someone buying into a tourney for $20. And they can add on or rebuy if they choose.

For us, it improved the social part of our game. No clock watching, no “I the blinds are going to get me”, and no “over-grinding”. People can relax and have fun.

We are thinking about a deep stack maybe every other month. The payout can be huge and it could deepen our player pool for our cash game which we are very particular about as far as invites go.

Good luck.

 

[Mr Winberg]

$5-10
$10-20
$15-30
$20-40
$50-100
$75-150
$200-400

Wow, there are some MASSIVE jumps there! But I guess that's needed if you're aiming for 3 250BB tournaments per night.

Personally, I would do perhaps 60 BBs if sticking to turbos, it'll allow for a smoother blinds progression. Or, just do 1 deep tourney and have a cashgame for the losers. That's how I do, it works really well.

was nice not making change all the time, but became tedious counting all the lower denom chips and more chipping up needed.

I am wondering what the best structure would be for the larger group of guys that would be easy to manage yet make the most people happy.

A popular structure nowadays is to have 100 as the lowest chip, combined with lopsided early levels. Having the first 3 be
100/100
100/200
100/300
and normal from there, i.e.
200/400
300/600
etc, means that the 100s will be around very long and you'll only need 4 denoms: 100/500/1000/5000. With 25k stacks you'll start with 250 BBs just like now.

If you're not getting new chips you can achieve the same by doing
1/1
1/2
1/3
2/4 etc

The pros are that the lowest denom becomes more useful and the first color-up is delayed. Also, the stacks are cut in half i.e. a few less high-denom chips needed.

The con is lopsided levels.

I would like to keep buy in at $5 yet incorporate a bounty either $1 or $5

Bounties are fun!! Do it! $5 seems a bit high though compared to the buy-in.

Late shows and rebuys same starting stack amount but give highest denomination chips to get change from table.

Exactly how I do it!

Also should rebuys repick seats?

If no, it's a rebuy. If yes, it's a re-entry. I vote 'no' because it's less work for the host.

 

[BGinGA]

@BGinGA

I don't think I can help. I would advise throwing everything previously considered out the window, but there are unfortunately too many incorrect predeterminations about what is 'best'.

 

[Sparkynutz]

I don't think I can help. I would advise throwing everything previously considered out the window, but there are unfortunately too many incorrect predeterminations about what is 'best'.

What would your ideal setup be then for a low stakes $5 buy in game followed by low stakes cash game?

 

[Silver_Fiend]

If your tourny buy-in is $5, another $5 for a bounty would be too much. The point of it is to be able to take home some winnings even if you bust out to a bad beat. I think a $1 bounty would be be right, and include a new bounty chip with every $6 re-buy.

 

[BGinGA]

approximately-
$1x1500
$5x800
$10x800
$25x800
$100x400
$500x200
$1k x200

What would your ideal setup be then for a low stakes $5 buy in game followed by low stakes cash game?

With your chip set breakdown, I would structure a max 3-hour tournament for 8-12 players as follows:

T300 starting stacks:
15 x T1
12 x T5
5 x T25
1 x T100
---------------
33 chips = T300, or alternately:
10 x T1
13 x T5
5 x T25
1 x T100
---------------
29 chips = T300

using the following structure (75 bb) with 15-minute blind levels:
L1 - 2/4
L2 - 3/6
L3 - 4/8
L4 - 6/12
L5 - 8/16
replace T1 chips with T25s
L6 - 10/20
L7 - 15/30
L8 - 20/40
L9 - 30/60
L10 - 40/80
replace T5 chips with T100s
L11 - 50/100
L12 - 75/150 ** eot
L13 - 100/200
L14 - 150/300
L15 - 200/400
replace T25 chips with T500s
L16 - 300/600
L17 - 400/800
L18 - 600/1200
L19 - 8001600
L20 - 1000/2000

A T300 stack event with 10 players should end no later than L12.

For events longer than 3 hours, increase the starting stack size (each T150 stack increase adds 15 minutes to event length). You can also increase the blind level times to lengthen the event (20-minute levels adds 1 hour). I do not recommend blind level times shorter than 2 minutes per remaining player, and never shorter than 10 minutes.

Issue 3 x T100 chips for re-buys. I do not recommend using T500 chips for re-buys, as there are not sufficient chips in play to make change for them.

Optimum stack size theory for betting efficiency and minimal change-making dictates that denominations be 4x or 5x apart, and that starting stacks contain between 10-16 chips each of the two lowest denominations. Use the two highest denomination chips to color-up the lower denominations that are no longer needed for blinds.

 

[Sparkynutz]

Tried a few tournament softwares tonight. I hated all of them, not user-friendly or couldn't adjust blinds at all or only with paid subscription. I have no patience for the cost or learning curve hassle. I'll be using my Phone stop watch timer, wireless mouse and a 47 inch tv used as a monitor hooked to my desktop computer running a power point presentation showing current blind levels. Very simple set up easily seen from two main tables and also 3rd table if needed via hdmi cable and monitor in the next room. I can click to advance, go back, pause etc easily and not have to fidget with some pos program. If anyone wants a copy of it id be happy to share it. The other guy that hosts always uses his phone, gets asked blinds nonstop and second table always lags behind on blind levels.
The last time I hosted more than 8 people dealing was a pain having 13 guys at one table. I used a kitchen timer looking thing and a notebook for levels. The big screen presentation and more tables should be a much better method.
I put together a spreadsheet with formulas to easily enter player and rebuy numbers for payout at the end too.
Ordered White chip Plaques to use as the bounty chips since they are $1 bounty yet look different than the $1 chips.
I also made some modifications to the game play of my horse racing game and played 6 games of it with family at Christmas. It played much more smoothly than originally designed. I'm looking forward to playing that as a quick easy fill in between other games. 3 races takes about 30-45 minutes depending on how many players. I'd guess 90-95% luck and about 5-10% betting skill but definitely fun.

 

[Old State]

People get way too obsessed with exact structure. From 2002-2009 four of us ran 7-8 tournaments a year with 30-40 players each. There was a wait list to get in and we payed out $27K-30K out in winnings. Point is they were very popular.
The key was to run them efficiently and professionally. We as well as many of the players were regular AC cash and tourney players. We took some of the better ideas from the casinos at the time but also adopted our own.
Some simple advice-
Use established casino denominations that are easily divisible into each other and allow for logical blind increases. Keep the chips and denominations on the table to a minimum and color out the smallest denoms every 3-4 levels. You don’t need to start with $25s if you don’t have them. Our starting stacks were 20 total chips (easy to store in standard racks) and we used $5s! (10 $5s, 6 $25s, 3 $100s and a $500 for a starting stack of $1000.

Blinds started 5/10 and we colored out every three rounds until late in the structure when it was 4. When there were the final 4-5 players left out of 30-40 there was usually only $100s, $500s, and a few $1000 chips in play. That’s probably not a popular structure now but it worked EXTREMELY well.

The only denomination that you can’t really work with for a tourney are $1s. They have to go. I played at a home tourney with $1s once about 18 years ago and found it extremely annoying.

 

[Old State]

We improved our tournaments by eliminating them and switching to a .10/.10 cash game. It was plenty live but have been running a .10/.20 game twice weekly now for about 4 months.

Best thing we ever did.

Best advise on this thread. Cash poker usually scares low limits players but micro limit games may ease them in. I converted several low buyin tournament only type people with .25/.50 cash. Most end up preferring cash once they understand the differences

 

[Mr Winberg]

Tried a few tournament softwares tonight. I hated all of them, not user-friendly or couldn't adjust blinds at all or only with paid subscription.

I recommend blindvalet. No learning curve + it's free if you just want the timer and none of the bells n whistles (just set it to 9 players). Log on with your phone and the device(s) that shows the blinds. Voila, you can now manage it from the phone!

 

[Sparkynutz]

I'm pretty sure blindvalet was one I tried where I could add blind levels but not modify, remove, or add breaks. PowerPoint with mouse clicks when my timer goes off at any interval I want is still much more simple and slides say wxactly what I want them to say. I made the break backgrounds the same and each blind changed to a different poker themed background so even people not listening or paying attention would see it changed easily when they did look again.

 

[Mr Winberg]

Great that you've found a setup that works for you.
Just an FYI, all of these can be done with blindvalet:

I'm pretty sure blindvalet was one I tried where I could add blind levels but not modify, remove, or add breaks.

Even mid tourney

 

[louBdub]

my input.

Apple airplay and this app are absolutely perfect for me