Tourney Another Starting Stack Question (1 Viewer)

[chubbyone]

Hey! Um... sorry this got loooooong.

You guys were super helpful in my other thread regarding breakdowns, so I came to bother you again.

I picked up a set of china clays from PokerDweebz and want to pick your brain.

Breakdown is:

T100 - 200
T500 - 100
T1000 - 180
T5000 - 100
T25000 - 20

(If there is a dramatic increase in usability by adding a few chips somewhere in this breakdown, I will order today.)

For now, to be specific, lets assume 10 player Max NLHE tourney (but likely only 8 as that best fits at the table), No Rebuys (group voted, maybe that will change in the future).

We are a soft bunch, and sure you can come take our money if you're in Buffalo . I say that because it may have bearing on how aggressive of a blind structure you recommend. I will have the timer displayed on my TV with blind information, but probably 3-4 outta us 8-10 have never even played increasing blind tourneys. All that said, if starting with a "noob" structure would impede learning, then throw us to the wolves. I did read PokerDweebz thread where you brokedown the t10000 starting tourney for 24 players, but still thought it would be worth getting a specific opinion on my whole situation. If your still reading, I owe you a beer. I hope the "main event" to last around 4 hours, and plan on having a second table setup for cash game as people bust out. This brings me to part 2 of this novel...

I am gonna order a cash set for the second table, Majestics as well. The buy-in for the tourney is going to be $20-$40. I assume my group at the moment is unlikely to bring much more than $60-80 total on any night to "invest". What sort of bank would you recommend? I have poked around a bit and was thinking maybe min $5 max $25 buy in, possibly even a little weaker. Not sure what fracs to use here. .25 1.00 and 5.00? 0.25/0.25 blinds?

Ill stop there.... thank you so much in advance!

 

[v1pe]

Thanks for the post, since I bought the other half I'm in the exact same spot regarding the tourney so I'll be interested to read folk's input. My situation differs as we usually do rebuys though.

As far as cash goes, generally I would go with min buy in at 50BB and max 200BB. So with your example probably .05/.10 blinds. You could probably go .10/.20 instead. The main issue is that it's semi difficult to find fracs at .05 but I think there Majestic does come with a .05 chip.

I'm also interested in a .25/.25 bank, so I'm looking forward to responses on that!

 

[v1pe]

FWIW I'm considering the following for a .25/.25 bank:

$.25 x 200
$1 x 150
$5 x 100
$20 x 50

 

[BGinGA]

Breakdown is:

T100 - 200
T500 - 100
T1000 - 180
T5000 - 100
T25000 - 20

10 player Max NLHE tourney
No Rebuys
last around 4 hours

I bought the other half I'm in the exact same spot regarding the tourney......My situation differs as we usually do rebuys

Best fit for your sets is a T60K deep stack tournament (300bb starting stacks):

20 x T100
10 x T500
18 x T1000
7 x T5000
--------------
55 chips = T60000

Use T5000 chips to color-up the T100 chips after L7, and use T25000 chips to color-up the T500/T1000 chips after L14. Tournament is unlikely to last past L16 (4 hours plus breaks): Enough extras (26x T5000 and 10x T25K) to offer up to 6 re-buys if desired.

T60000 starting stacks
15-minute blind levels
40% average increases

lvl sb bb
L1 100 200
L2 100 300
L3 200 400
L4 300 600
L5 400 800
L6 600 1200
L7 800 1600
remove T100 chips
L8 1000 2000
L9 1500 3000
L10 2000 4000
L11 3000 6000
L12 4000 8000
L13 6000 12000
L14 7500 15000
remove T500/T1000 chips
L15 10000 20000
L16 15000 30000 ***
L17 20000 40000
L18 30000 60000
L19 40000 80000
L20 60000 120000

 

[v1pe]

Best fit for your sets is a T60K deep stack tournament (300bb starting stacks):

20 x T100
10 x T500
18 x T1000
7 x T5000
--------------
55 chips = T60000

Use T5000 chips to color-up the T100 chips after L7, and use T25000 chips to color-up the T500/T1000 chips after L14. Tournament is unlikely to last past L16 (4 hours plus breaks): Enough extras (26x T5000 and 10x T25K) to offer up to 6 re-buys if desired.

T60000 starting stacks
15-minute blind levels
40% average increases

lvl sb bb
L1 100 200
L2 100 300
L3 200 400
L4 300 600
L5 400 800
L6 600 1200
L7 800 1600
remove T100 chips
L8 1000 2000
L9 1500 3000
L10 2000 4000
L11 3000 6000
L12 4000 8000
L13 6000 12000
L14 7500 15000
remove T500/T1000 chips
L15 10000 20000
L16 15000 30000 ***
L17 20000 40000
L18 30000 60000
L19 40000 80000
L20 60000 120000

Perfect, I love a deepstack structure. Thanks BG!

 

[chubbyone]

Best fit for your sets is a T60K deep stack tournament (300bb starting stacks):

20 x T100
10 x T500
18 x T1000
7 x T5000
--------------
55 chips = T60000

Use T5000 chips to color-up the T100 chips after L7, and use T25000 chips to color-up the T500/T1000 chips after L14. Tournament is unlikely to last past L16 (4 hours plus breaks): Enough extras (26x T5000 and 10x T25K) to offer up to 6 re-buys if desired.

T60000 starting stacks
15-minute blind levels
40% average increases

lvl sb bb
L1 100 200
L2 100 300
L3 200 400
L4 300 600
L5 400 800
L6 600 1200
L7 800 1600
remove T100 chips
L8 1000 2000
L9 1500 3000
L10 2000 4000
L11 3000 6000
L12 4000 8000
L13 6000 12000
L14 7500 15000
remove T500/T1000 chips
L15 10000 20000
L16 15000 30000 ***
L17 20000 40000
L18 30000 60000
L19 40000 80000
L20 60000 120000

Thanks!

I'm gonna really show how Green I am here. But could you explain the easiest way to color-up. I get that we're removing all the 100's and there's some math involved in keeping stacks the same. Is there a trick to this? Any instances where you have to "round" and if so, what's the rule of thumb?

 

[ejot]

My only experience is cash games near those stakes so I'll give some thoughts on that side.

Definitely plan on starting with .05/.1 blinds for a game where you're expecting buy-ins of $5-25. The game I usually play in uses these blinds, typical buy-in of $25, often gets quite deep, and is a ton of fun. A 600-chip breakdown that both covers this (single-table) game comfortably and allows it to grow to .25/.25 would be something like:

100 x 5c
180 x 25c
160/180 x $1
140/160 x $5

For .05/.1 with $5-$25 start stacks: $5 base stack of 10x5c/18x25c. Add up to 10x$1 for stacks up to $15 and top off with 1-2 $5's for stacks up to $25. Rebuys get $1's & $5's. I love having two full barrels of chips to start a game with. The 25c chip will be your workhorse.

I prefer to avoid planning for .1/.2 blinds unless considering a chipset with 10c/50c/$2/$10 denoms (which I do think is a pretty cool set idea).

For .1/.25 with $15-50 start stacks: $15 base stack of 10x5c/10x25c/12x$1. Add $5's for stacks up to $50, or add 5x$1's for stacks up to $20 and then $5's for stacks up to $50. Rebuys get $5's.

For .25/.25 with $15-50 start stacks: $15 base stack of 12x25c/12x$1. Add 5x$1's for stacks up to $20 and top off with up to 6x$5's for stacks up to $50. Again, rebuys get $5's.

A barrel of $20/25 wouldn't be a bad idea for potentially wild nights.

To expand to .5/1 and 1/2, add $1's and $5's. Lots and lots and lots of $5's.

 

[v1pe]

Great breakdown from @ejot IMO.

You'll just have to round out the bank to increments of 25 if you are ordering majestics.

 

[chubbyone]

My only experience is cash games near those stakes so I'll give some thoughts on that side.

Definitely plan on starting with .05/.1 blinds for a game where you're expecting buy-ins of $5-25. The game I usually play in uses these blinds, typical buy-in of $25, often gets quite deep, and is a ton of fun. A 600-chip breakdown that both covers this (single-table) game comfortably and allows it to grow to .25/.25 would be something like:

100 x 5c
180 x 25c
160/180 x $1
140/160 x $5

For .05/.1 with $5-$25 start stacks: $5 base stack of 10x5c/18x25c. Add up to 10x$1 for stacks up to $15 and top off with 1-2 $5's for stacks up to $25. Rebuys get $1's & $5's. I love having two full barrels of chips to start a game with. The 25c chip will be your workhorse.

I prefer to avoid planning for .1/.2 blinds unless considering a chipset with 10c/50c/$2/$10 denoms (which I do think is a pretty cool set idea).

For .1/.25 with $15-50 start stacks: $15 base stack of 10x5c/10x25c/12x$1. Add $5's for stacks up to $50, or add 5x$1's for stacks up to $20 and then $5's for stacks up to $50. Rebuys get $5's.

For .25/.25 with $15-50 start stacks: $15 base stack of 12x25c/12x$1. Add 5x$1's for stacks up to $20 and top off with up to 6x$5's for stacks up to $50. Again, rebuys get $5's.

A barrel of $20/25 wouldn't be a bad idea for potentially wild nights.

To expand to .5/1 and 1/2, add $1's and $5's. Lots and lots and lots of $5's.

Thanks!

Anyone else want to help with the color-up question?

 

[v1pe]

@BGinGA do you have recommendations for payout structure? I generally like a bit more spread. I think it's standard to only pay 2 with one table, but we like to give 3rd place at least their buy in back if we have at least 8 people playing.

 

[chubbyone]

@BGinGA do you have recommendations for payout structure? I generally like a bit more spread. I think it's standard to only pay 2 with one table, but we like to give 3rd place at least their buy in back if we have at least 8 people playing.

I was planning 2nd place gets their buy in back, winner take the rest.

I am tossing around the bounty chip idea, because that lets other people cash in too. So for example $20 buy-in + $5 bounty chip. I think my group would rather add $5 that way, than additional buy-in. That, or they will think it's too gimmicky.

 

[crussader]

... I get that we're removing all the 100's and there's some math involved in keeping stacks the same. Is there a trick to this? Any instances where you have to "round" and if so, what's the rule of thumb?

You will have to round up. You round up to the next chip. If someone has two T100 chips, you take the the hundos and give them a T500 chip. If someone has five T100 chips, you take the five hundos and give them a T500 chip. Yes, this will lead to some people getting a little bonus in their chip stack, but it will be an insignificant amount compared to the blind levels.

 

[v1pe]

I was planning 2nd place gets their buy in back, winner take the rest.

I am tossing around the bounty chip idea, because that lets other people cash in too. So for example $20 buy-in + $5 bounty chip. I think my group would rather add $5 that way, than additional buy-in. That, or they will think it's too gimmicky.

Typically I think it's like a 70/30 for 1st/2nd, I usually do something like 65/25/10 if paying 3.

 

[ejot]

For coloring up you can also round down and do a race for the remainders or put them in the first pot after the break.

 

[chubbyone]

You will have to round up. You round up to the next chip. If someone has two T100 chips, you take the the hundos and give them a T500 chip. If someone has five T100 chips, you take the five hundos and give them a T500 chip. Yes, this will lead to some people getting a little bonus in their chip stack, but it will be an insignificant amount compared to the blind levels.

For coloring up you can also round down and do a race for the remainders or put them in the first pot after the break.

Im confused though, because with the tourney structure BG recommended, all my T500's are in play. His recommendation was to color up the t100 chips with t5000. That seems like a considerable round-up, no?

 

[ejot]

Good question. I think you could make change among players first so all the T100s are concentrated on at most just a couple people. Then it should be easier to work out the color up with minimal rounding. Maybe you could also take a few higher denoms out at the same time as all the 100s to help out, but I'm not sure if this is standard or recommended. Not a tourney guy so I'll let the experts better guide you.

 

[crussader]

If all your T500 chips are in play. Use some larger denomination chips to buy some T500 chips from the big stacks in the room and use those for color ups. Some of this can be done during the color-up. For example, a person has 3 T100s to color up. Have them give you 3 T100 and 1 T500. You give them a T1000. Now you have a T500 to color up someone else. This usually works fairly well. However, if you want to make it easy and not have to think about it you can always get a few extra T500s to have ready at color up time.

 

[chubbyone]

Good question. I think you could make change among players first so all the T100s are concentrated on at most just a couple people. Then it should be easier to work out the color up with minimal rounding. Maybe you could also take a few higher denoms out at the same time as all the 100s to help out, but I'm not sure if this is standard or recommended. Not a tourney guy so I'll let the experts better guide you.

If all your T500 chips are in play. Use some larger denomination chips to buy some T500 chips from the big stacks in the room and use those for color ups. Some of this can be done during the color-up. For example, a person has 3 T100s to color up. Have them give you 3 T100 and 1 T500. You give them a T1000. Now you have a T500 to color up someone else. This usually works fairly well. However, if you want to make it easy and not have to think about it you can always get a few extra T500s to have ready at color up time.

Thanks for the quick responses guys. Obviously buying more chips would be easier, but 500 seems to be a fairly insignificant chip from the breakdown stuff I've seen. Maybe he means to give them 5k's for say 3 t1000 plus 12 t100, an 800 round up but maybe insignificant overall?

Just thinking out loud.

 

[crussader]

.. I think you could make change among players first so all the T100s are concentrated on at most just a couple people. Then it should be easier to work out the color up with minimal rounding....

When the end of the level is getting close, having the big stack at the table buy up the chips about to be colored up will make the process go a little quicker and easier. However, it won't affect the rounding at all. Let's say I have seven T100s. I can sell five to the big stack, but will still have the odd two that need to be rounded. Wherever the odd quantities exist among the players, that's where they'll stay until colored up by the bank.

 

[chubbyone]

@BGinGA where is your ruthless wisdom?

 

[crussader]

... an 800 round up but maybe insignificant overall?..

The round up should never be more than the next level chip. When taking T100s off the table, nobody should get more than a roundup of 400. Doing otherwise can become significant, and will certainly lead to complaints from experienced players.

Let's say the big stack has ten T100s, six T500s, and eight T1000s (Just to pick some random numbers). You give him a T5000 chip and take all the T100s, T500s, and one T1000 from him. That gives you 6 T500s for color ups, which is probably more than enough.

Also consider that for a 10 player tourney, there will never ever be more than ten people that need to be rounded up (almost always significantly fewer). Therefore, if you get just 10 more T500 chips, you won't even have to think about any of this. Later, when you get experienced at running tournaments you won't need them (and you probably won't get extras in your next set).

I say just get an extra ten T500s. It doesn't significantly affect the cost of the set, will give you a little peace of mind, and it never hurts to have some spares.

 

[chubbyone]

The round up should never be more than the next level chip. When taking T100s off the table, nobody should get more than a roundup of 400. Doing otherwise can become significant, and will certainly lead to complaints from experienced players.

Let's say the big stack has ten T100s, six T500s, and eight T1000s (Just to pick some random numbers). You give him a T5000 chip and take all the T100s, T500s, and one T1000 from him. That gives you 6 T500s for color ups, which is probably more than enough.

Also consider that for a 10 player tourney, there will never ever be more than ten people that need to be rounded up (almost always significantly fewer). Therefore, if you get just 10 more T500 chips, you won't even have to think about any of this.

Later, when you get experienced at running tournaments you won't need them (and you probably won't get extras in your next set).

I say just get an extra ten T500s. It doesn't significantly affect the cost of the set, will give you a little peace of mind, and it never hurts to have some spares.

I'd have to buy a roll of 25, which I'm totally willing to do, if its the most convenient way.

 

[v1pe]

I'd have to buy a roll of 25, which I'm totally willing to do, if its the most convenient way.

In practice I don't think you're going to need to. I can't think of a scenario where it won't be possible to make change, you can always buy some smaller denoms from the big stack with 5k or 25k chips.

 

[crussader]

I'd have to buy a roll of 25, which I'm totally willing to do, if its the most convenient way.

After you get half a dozen tournaments or so under your belt you won't need the extra chips. However, it would definitely be convenient to have them when starting out. The question is whether it's worth the cost of an extra 25 chips to give you a little easier time going through a 6 to 10 game learning curve, That's the question that's left to you to answer.

 

[ejot]

When the end of the level is getting close, having the big stack at the table buy up the chips about to be colored up will make the process go a little quicker and easier. However, it won't affect the rounding at all. Let's say I have seven T100s. I can sell five to the big stack, but will still have the odd two that need to be rounded. Wherever the odd quantities exist among the players, that's where they'll stay until colored up by the bank.

Yes, I did a poor job of conveying that remainders of <5 100's will certainly stay with their player till colored, and appreciate the clarification. Was just trying to answer to the mechanics of the exchange between relatively large vs small denoms while avoiding absurdly large rounding (ie "this player only has 13x 100's, I can't give him a 5000, round those 13 down")

 

[BGinGA]

Chips can be removed via the race-off method or the round-up method. The round-up method is easier, faster, and arguably fairer. Plenty of info can be found via search on PCF and elsewhere online on how to perform each method.

However, the practice of replacing chips with the next-higher denomination chip is very inefficient - you are adding new chips to the table that are not needed, and that will just need to be removed later. It is definitely not recommended.

Using much larger denomination chips to replace the lower denomination chips is the correct way to do it. If the starting stacks were set up properly, the correct amounts of lower denomination chips are already in play. The larger denomination chips will be needed later in the tournament, so it makes sense to add them as replacements for chips no longer needed.


There are essentially two ways to introduce the higher denomination chip(s) during a color-up:

• have all players sell their lowest denomination chips to the big stack, keeping any odd numbers in front of them
• buy all of the lower denominations chips (plus a few next-lowest denoms) from the big stack with the higher denomination chip
• use the next-lowest denomination chips purchased from the big stack to color-up each player as needed

or

• exchange the higher denomination chip for smaller chips from the big stack
• use the smaller denomination chips purchased from the big stack to color-up each player as needed

In reality, a combination of those two approaches is usually fastest.

 

[Mac128k]

The chip calc might help with buying decisions. https://www.pokerchipforum.com/pages/poker-chip-calculator/

 

[v1pe]

Best fit for your sets is a T60K deep stack tournament (300bb starting stacks):

20 x T100
10 x T500
18 x T1000
7 x T5000
--------------
55 chips = T60000

Use T5000 chips to color-up the T100 chips after L7, and use T25000 chips to color-up the T500/T1000 chips after L14. Tournament is unlikely to last past L16 (4 hours plus breaks): Enough extras (26x T5000 and 10x T25K) to offer up to 6 re-buys if desired.

T60000 starting stacks
15-minute blind levels
40% average increases

lvl sb bb
L1 100 200
L2 100 300
L3 200 400
L4 300 600
L5 400 800
L6 600 1200
L7 800 1600
remove T100 chips
L8 1000 2000
L9 1500 3000
L10 2000 4000
L11 3000 6000
L12 4000 8000
L13 6000 12000
L14 7500 15000
remove T500/T1000 chips
L15 10000 20000
L16 15000 30000 ***
L17 20000 40000
L18 30000 60000
L19 40000 80000
L20 60000 120000

@BGinGA looks like I might have more than 10 players...how would you suggest I structure starting stacks with up to 16 players? Should I reduce the starting stack value and/or adjust the first blind level to 100/100? Will I need to limit rebuys?

 

[BGinGA]

how would you suggest I structure starting stacks with up to 16 players? Should I reduce the starting stack value and/or adjust the first blind level to 100/100? Will I need to limit rebuys?

With 16 players and that set breakdown, about the best you can do is T40K stacks (10/6/6/6) with no re-buys. Use the same structure (now 200BB, still plenty deep), which will still finish no later than 4 hours (plus breaks) with 16 players using 15-minute levels.

Alternately, you could use T30K starting stacks (10/6/6/4) and offer re-buys, adding a new L1 100/100 to maintain the original 300BB. Still finishes no later than 4 hours with 16 players.

 

[v1pe]

With 16 players and that set breakdown, about the best you can do is T40K stacks (10/6/6/6) with no re-buys. Use the same structure (now 200BB, still plenty deep), which will still finish no later than 4 hours (plus breaks) with 16 players using 15-minute levels.

Alternately, you could use T30K starting stacks (10/6/6/4) and offer re-buys, adding a new L1 100/100 to maintain the original 300BB. Still finishes no later than 4 hours with 16 players.

Thanks, if I get an excess of 10 players I will use the T30k with a 100/100 L1. Perfect.

Any suggestions for expansion of this set? Is there any logic to incrementally adding to it to expand its capacity, or should I have just grabbed the whole set when I had a chance?