Tourney Advice on Chips Needed for a $3K-$5K Tournament (1 Viewer)

[spike]

I'm looking to put together a small tournament set for a single table with blinds starting at $5/$10 and starting stacks potentially ranging from $3K to $5K.

I though @iballman had a good tournament structure breakdown here:
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/thre...s-set-request-for-feedback.16780/#post-301596

I could use some advice on how many chips I would need for each denomination including support for a few rebuys.

I was originally thinking something like:
$5 x 200
$25 x 200
$100 x 200
$500 x 100
$1000 x 20

But am worried this won't be enough for the $5K starting stacks and would make it difficult to color up. Any advice welcome as this is my first time trying to build a tournament set.

Thanks.

 

[Ronoh]

You don't need that many low denom chips in a single tourney set, if starting everyone with a barrel of red and a barrel of green at some point that many chips are just going to start getting in the way.

100 - 5
100 - 25
100 - 100
20 - 500

That covers the bottom end of my single table breakdown for a T2000 10-man game with starting stacks of 10/10/7/2 -- the 30 extra hundos exactly cover all the 5s and 25s yet there are still zero issues when coloring up. All the 100/500 stay on the table for the duration.

Point being for a deeper game all you have to do is add more larger denoms.

100- 5
100- 25
100- 100
60- 500
40- 1000

400 chips and covers a single table ten man T7000 using 10/10/7/6/3 and leaves an acceptable 100 chips on the table for the end game.

 

[WedgeRock]

Start with your starting stack. For a T3k tournament, starting stacks could be:

T5x10
T25x10
T100x7
T500x4

So for 10 players, you'd need:

T5x100
T25x100
T100x70
T500x40

I'd plan on coloring up the T5 and T25 into T100 (rather than T5-->T25 and then T25-->T100...just have the big stack buy all the T5's except for the odd ball ones; you may have to buy a couple T25's off the table for the odd-ball colorups. Or do a runoff.)

So to color up all the T5 and T25, you'll need 30 more T100 (or 100xT100 total).

If you are planning on rebuys, I usually estimate about 30%. This is a higher than our typical rate, but it'll depend on your group. Always estimate higher than you need.

30% (or 3 rebuys) at T3k each is 6xT500x3 or 3xT1000x3 if you have the fifth denom. Let's assume you don't. So you need another 18xT500 (or 58 total).

Now, if you are going to finish the tournament with just T100 and T500 on the table, assuming a 30%-70% breakdown, you'll finish with 117 T100's and 55 T500's. You can play with this breakdown, and it will really depend on your blind schedule where you end your tournament (i.e., you might still have T25's on the table).

So at a minimum, I'd be looking for this:

T5x100
T25x100
T100x120 (you have to round these up to full barrels, or my OCD will not approve)
T500x60 (ditto)

Because that is going to be bare minimum, I'd add some more higher denom chips (T100-T500 or even a T1k chip) to make sure you have extra rebuys, and also allow you to host a double stack or a T5k. Adding another denom would go along was towards solving rebuy and doublestack problems). Even a barrel of T1000 would make the set more playable.

 

[spike]

Cool. I see what you guys are saying about the lower denomination chips. Too many becomes a pain later. I was hoping to keep the number of 1K chips not so high since those seem to be more expensive, but I still wanted some to keep around in-case of extra rebuys.

Also thanks for the tips on how best to color up the 5s and 25s. Seems pretty doable and keeps the number of chips down to a smaller amount so I don't have to lug around quite so many.


Maybe for a T5000 I could use 10/10/7/6/1 for the starting stack with

T5 x 100
T25 x 100
T100 x 120
T500 x 100
T1000 x 20

That should cover plenty of rebuys if things get crazy (and makes a nice full rack of T500s to satisfy my OCD - haha)

Thanks for the advice.

 

[WedgeRock]

Maybe for a T5000 I could use 10/10/7/6/1 for the starting stack

This is totally a personal preference, but I prefer not to start with every denomination on the table... Makes that last denom feel more important (I generally hand them out as rebuys too...but that's still a bit later in the tournament).

I'd prefer a 10/10/7/8 starting stack.

 

[BGinGA]

You don't need that many low denom chips in a single tourney set, if starting everyone with a barrel of red and a barrel of green at some point that many chips are just going to start getting in the way.

100 - 5
100 - 25
100 - 100
20 - 500

That covers the bottom end of my single table breakdown for a T2000 10-man game with starting stacks of 10/10/7/2 -- the 30 extra hundos exactly cover all the 5s and 25s yet there are still zero issues when coloring up. All the 100/500 stay on the table for the duration.

Point being for a deeper game all you have to do is add more larger denoms.

100- 5
100- 25
100- 100
60- 500
40- 1000

400 chips and covers a single table ten man T7000 using 10/10/7/6/3 and leaves an acceptable 100 chips on the table for the end game.

^^ This is perfect.

Not sure where @WedgeRock is getting 117 x T100 on the table.... as only 100 are needed (70x for ten starting stacks, and 30x for T5/T25 color-ups). Although I do agree with him about not starting with five different denomination chips if possible.

 

[WedgeRock]

Not sure where @WedgeRock is getting 117 x T100 on the table.... as only 100 are needed (70x for ten starting stacks, and 30x for T5/T25 color-ups).

I like to think about what the chip stacks will look like at the end of the tournament. The 117xT100 was based on a 30%-70% breakdown of the last two denoms, assuming no T1000 chip.

Thats only 182 chips on the table to finish the tournament, which is a little light, IMO, especially 3- or 4-handed.

You can play around with the numbers based on your blind schedule, whether you have a T1000 chip and the projected end of your tournament based on your blind schedule, but the amount of chips at the finish of the tournament is a valid consideration, IMO.

I prefer to finish with at least 3 colors on the table, so what are the blinds at the projected finish? Have you even taken the T25's off the table?

 

[BGinGA]

Still wondering where the 17 mystery hundos came from.....

 

[WedgeRock]

Not sure how many more times or more ways to say it.

10 players @T3k + 30% rebuys = T39,000 in play.

If 30% of the final chips on the table are T100's and 70% of the final chips on the table are T500, that's 117xT100 and 55xT500.

@Ronoh's breakdown is well-thought out and works perfectly. I was just adding the additional thought of chips on the table when the game ends. I am not promoting that it should be a 30%-70% breakdown of the final two chips. In fact, I think that 172 chips is too few to end with and, as I said, I prefer at least 3 colors on the table when the game ends. But the preferred breakdown will necessarily depend on what the blinds are when the tournament is expected to end. I'm not sure that T25's even need to come off the table, so that changes the final chip counts, as does whether the structure supports a need for T1000 chips.

 

[Split]

10 players @T3k + 30% rebuys = T39,000 in play.

If 30% of the final chips on the table are T100's and 70% of the final chips on the table are T500, that's 117xT100 and 55xT500.

117 is indeed exactly 30% of 39,000, but when you round the T500s up to the nearest chip that leaves you with two extra T100s. Unless there's some creative chipping up involved, I think you really mean to say 115 T100s to make the math work.

 

[BGinGA]

117 may be 30% of 39,000...... but there are only 100 x T100 chips in play, period. There cannot be 30% T100s if that many do not exist.

70x were introduced as the starting stacks. 30 more were introduced as color-ups. The other 17 exist only in your head, not on the table or in play.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Looking at your proposed blind structure, I think 100 T5s is a little light. With a 10-20 blind level, you are going through 6 x T5s just by getting garbage hands in the blinds. That's 60% of your small chips! Sure, making change isn't that hard, but you can avoid making change every hand by having more chips in play.

I would greatly prefer 15 x T5s in each starting stack. If your players are new or like to limp into a lot of pots, 20 x T5s is not a problem. I used this 20 x T5s per player for years without issue, but now use 15 x T5s in my starting stack because of chip breakage (I did not order extras).

As for rebuys, I have had as many as 50% of my players rebuy in a single night. This number will vary depending on structure and how long the rebuy period is, but I average 29.6% of my players reloading each game this year. You cannot buy chips for the average though - you must plan for the max. This can be done in large denom chips of course, but it must be something you plan for.

 

[WedgeRock]

there are only 100 x T100 chips in play, period. ... The other 17 exist only in your head, not on the table or in play.

Coloring up the odd T25 chip can result in more T100's in play. Or giving out rebuys of 5xT500 + 5xT100 instead of 6xT500. And it is possible to color down some T500's to get more chips in play. All of these are possible (although the latter is not really likely). Can you make it work with 100xT100? Absolutely, just as @Ronoh said. I'd probably add a 6th barrel of T100's though. If you are talking about 30% rebuys and 10 players and assuming the T25's are colored out, do you really want to end with 158 chips on the table 3-handed (100xT100 and 58xT500)?

I think there are better distributions, but again, it is all dependent on what the blinds are when the tournament ends (I have a feeling that the T25's will be on the table in most decent structures) and how many rebuys you have.

 

[upNdown]

Although I do agree with him about not starting with five different denomination chips if possible.

It's tough to do a deepstack tournament though, isn't it?
I guess in a 25/50 with 15k or maybe even 20k stacks, you could use a lot of 1k's instead of a 5k or two.
My favorite local tournament is a 25/50 with antes, starting with a 30k stack, so there's really no way around using 5 chips.
Then there's the 25/50 100k stack which uses 6 different chips. There's really no excuse for that, especially since there's no antes - they really should just start at 100/200.

 

[BGinGA]

do you really want to end with 158 chips on the table 3-handed (100xT100 and 58xT500)?

Absolutely. In fact, I consider 160 chips in play to be the sweet spot at tourney end, provided the denominations are adequate for the blinds and typical bet sizes, with a preferred range of 120-200 chips (fringes of the acceptable range would be 80-240). However, chances are good that the quoted 100xT100 and 58xT500 breakdown isn't optimum for the expected bet sizes, and swapping out some of those chips for T1000 (or T2000) would likely be more efficient.

Playing with more than a rack per player heads-up is overkill, and generally results in more re-stacking after big pots than actually playing. Fewer than two barrels per player (120 chips three-way) is not enough imo, although it certainly works.

 

[BGinGA]

Coloring up the odd T25 chip can result in more T100's in play.

This should never happen. If it doesn't work out exact, coloring up the odd T25 chip should actually reduce the number of T100s in play (and increase the number of T500s, in this example). Introducing larger chips into play is good tournament management.

Or giving out rebuys of 5xT500 + 5xT100 instead of 6xT500.

I was just going by your earlier suggested re-buy stack breakdowns, which did not include T100 chips.

And it is possible to color down some T500's to get more chips in play.

That's really bad tournament management, imo.... and typically indicative of poor starting stack construction.

 

[BGinGA]

It's tough to do a deepstack tournament though, isn't it?
I guess in a 25/50 with 15k or maybe even 20k stacks, you could use a lot of 1k's instead of a 5k or two.

Not to start a debate on T1000vT2000, but 25/50 blinds with 20K starting stacks consisting of just four denominations (T25, T100, T500, T2000) works really well.

And deep stack events using T.25, T1, or T5 base (or T1000 or T5000 base) don't require five denominations in the starting stacks, either. It's just the T25-base with the crappy T500-to-T1000 chip jump that causes the 5-denom issue - or forces a large number of (semi-useless) T500 and T1000 chips into play instead.

 

[Ronoh]

The ideal number of chips remaining during the end game directly correlates to the people you are playing with.

If they are experienced, understand without counting how much a barrel of any particular denomination is worth and can cut and handle cheques properly I say the more the merrier.

If they fall into the other category then more than two colors or more than 100 total chips is a fucking nightmare.

 

[upNdown]

Not to start a debate on T1000vT2000, but 25/50 blinds with 20K starting stacks consisting of just four denominations (T25, T100, T500, T2000) works really well.

And deep stack events using T.25, T1, or T5 base (or T1000 or T5000 base) don't require five denominations in the starting stacks, either. It's just the T25-base with the crappy T500-to-T1000 chip jump that causes the 5-denom issue - or forces a large number of (semi-useless) T500 and T1000 chips into play instead.

I can debate you no longer. That finally made it click for me. Now I get it.

 

[WedgeRock]

This should never happen. If it doesn't work out exact, coloring up the odd T25 chip should actually reduce the number of T100s in play (and increase the number of T500s, in this example). Introducing larger chips into play is good tournament management.

If you do a chip race, then yes, T25's (or T5's) can color up into T100's exactly. For our tournaments, we don't race, we just color up. So if you end the round with 7xT25, you'll get 2xT100.

If everyone else at the table has an even number of T25's (divisible by 4) except one person has 7xT25 and another has 9xT25, then you will add on extra T100. Not sure how coloring up odd T25's reduces the number of T100's, but I presume we are talking about apples and oranges.

 

[spike]

Lots of stuff to think about and take into consideration. I like the idea of not having the T1000 chip in the starting stack and using additional T500s. I will probably end up playing with the starting stacks based on everyones input and see what will work best for the type of group to find the right balance.

I'll probably buy some extras for spares and to make adjustments, but start with what you guys suggest. I definitely have a better idea of what to expect I'll need plus some new tips.

Thanks for helping out a newbie.

 

[BGinGA]

If you do a chip race, then yes, T25's (or T5's) can color up into T100's exactly. For our tournaments, we don't race, we just color up. So if you end the round with 7xT25, you'll get 2xT100.

If everyone else at the table has an even number of T25's (divisible by 4) except one person has 7xT25 and another has 9xT25, then you will add on extra T100. Not sure how coloring up odd T25's reduces the number of T100's, but I presume we are talking about apples and oranges.

We don't race either. Rather than add an extra T100 from storage to cover the odd amount situations, a larger chip (T500 for example) is added instead - and exchanged with the big stack for 5x T100 in return. In your example, one of those T100s would be used to color-up, and the other four T100s would be removed from play (not needed for coloring up). So coloring up an odd number of T25s could actually result in the removal of T100 chips, but never requires adding any.

Same principle applies on any color-up scenario. Most of our color-ups use denomination chips several magnitude higher, rather than the next chip in line. This 400-chip T5 set for the OP is a rare exception where T100s would be introduced as color-up chips for T25s. In larger stack T25-base sets, T100 chips are not be introduced as color-up chips simply because they will require removal later. Much more efficient to use a chip that is a later workhorse chip (T1000 or T5000) to color up the smaller denominations -- those chips will remain in play for the duration of the event, and will see a lot of use.

 

[BGinGA]

Then there's the 25/50 100k stack which uses 6 different chips. There's really no excuse for that, especially since there's no antes - they really should just start at 100/200.

2000 big blinds to start is insane, unless it's a long drawn-out multi-day event - otherwise, the early blind levels are mostly a waste of time, as they are just used to quickly pare down the stacks to playable sizes. I'm guessing they use T25, T100, T500, T1000, T5000, and T25000 chips to start. See how using T500/T2000/T10000 would be vastly superior in that setting? And you could get away with just four denominations if starting at 100/200 (or 100/100, which is still a whopping 1000bb).

First NLHE tournament I ever played used six denominations: T1, T5, T10, T25, T50, and T100. Starting stacks were 20 chips totaling T500 (5/5/5/5/4/1) with 1/2 blinds that doubled every 15 minutes. Sure, it was 500bb deep-stack tournament, but even with three tables, it rarely lasted 2-1/2 hours and was a total shove-fest after the first hour. Those guys were fucking clueless.

But inspirational in terms of me wanting to make it better. (y) :thumbsup: