5 card draw (1 Viewer)

[JustinInMN]

Does anyone play it at their card games?

I get why it’s not the best game because there’s no community cards for people to watch. A lot of people say the game is largely luck, but isn’t the game almost all position?

We don’t play mixed games and it seems like a crazy easy one to start with. Most people know it before Holdem

That being said, I can’t find any post to do with it. Is it that gone and dead?

Any tips or strategies for the game?

The extra data point of mixing in how many cards players draw with their actions makes this game fascinating to me. However, in live poker rooms, you will only see lowball draw games as part of a mix games table.

I do play it with my uncles in our micro home game. My basic strategy 6-handed, open raise 10s or better from early position, maybe down to 6s or better in late position, maybe added in some straight or flush draws that also contain high cards. Reraise with AA, KK or two-pair plus. All my draws are either 3 cards, 1 card or pat. I take 3 cards to any pair I've played. I take one card to two-pair, three-of-a-kind, four-of-a-kind, or a straight or flush draw. I stand pat on made straights, flushes, and full houses. I have no two card draws in my range. Drawing 2 to make a straight or a flush is usually too big of a longshot to justify, and I do think drawing three to a pair is superior to drawing two and keeping a kicker. Better odds to make 3 of a kind that way.

 

[SeanGecko]

5 card draw jacks or better progressive

 

[OzzieJim]

Wow dealing 5 cards to each player is so hard. And reshuffling is traumatic…it’s cards. If you don’t like shuffling and dealing, how did end up a card player ?

The issue is how quick it plays. Dealing 30 cards to have everyone fold around and then immediately have to shuffle and deal again is annoying.

Even if you get a round of play it's only 2 streets, so you're shuffling and dealing again in about a minute or less. Single draw games are objectively the most annoying as a dealer.

 

[legend672]

It’s cards, not a race . There is a social aspect to it

 

[rjbf65]

I think 2-7 single draw is the superior game. There is a chance you make your hand worse by drawing compared to nothing but upside in 5 card draw.

 

[legend672]

I think 2-7 single draw is the superior game. There is a chance you make your hand worse by drawing compared to nothing but upside in 5 card draw.

Oh my. 2-7 single draw better than real poker ? Some posts just boggle the mind

 

[Kid_Eastwood]

I think 2-7 single draw is the superior game. There is a chance you make your hand worse by drawing compared to nothing but upside in 5 card draw.

I love to play 2-7. That's my preferred one too.
I also love ace-to-five with a Joker and draw high with a Joker.

 

[ThrowBack]

The extra data point of mixing in how many cards players draw with their actions makes this game fascinating to me. However, in live poker rooms, you will only see lowball draw games as part of a mix games table.

I do play it with my uncles in our micro home game. My basic strategy 6-handed, open raise 10s or better from early position, maybe down to 6s or better in late position, maybe added in some straight or flush draws that also contain high cards. Reraise with AA, KK or two-pair plus. All my draws are either 3 cards, 1 card or pat. I take 3 cards to any pair I've played. I take one card to two-pair, three-of-a-kind, four-of-a-kind, or a straight or flush draw. I stand pat on made straights, flushes, and full houses. I have no two card draws in my range. Drawing 2 to make a straight or a flush is usually too big of a longshot to justify, and I do think drawing three to a pair is superior to drawing two and keeping a kicker. Better odds to make 3 of a kind that way.

No drawing 2 with KKA?
What about with something like JKQ suited?

 

[JustinInMN]

No drawing 2 with KKA?
What about with something like JKQ suited?

I'd rather throw the Ace. Increases my odds of making trips, or drawing a "cold pair." Kings-up when you know you've discarded an ace is pretty strong.
KQJ suited may be the one I could be talked into as a 2 card draw, but honestly, I'm probably folding that. It's less than 5% to complete a flush drawing two, probably less than another 5% to complete a straight with 3 connectors (and only one good card.)

In hold'em terms it's about the same odds as a gutshot to make a straight or flush, to improve. I think the strategy works better just never drawing two. Only draw to 4-card open end straights, or 4 card flushes. If you happen to get both in the same hand, bonus.

 

[JustinInMN]

I think 2-7 single draw is the superior game. There is a chance you make your hand worse by drawing compared to nothing but upside in 5 card draw.

When to go pat in this game, single-draw or triple-draw is a fascinating exercise. Your point is well taken about draw for high. You are always going for better with no risk.

I love both games, but in lowball, that extra element is fascinating.

 

[rjbf65]

Watch the final table of the 2-7 single draw tourney at the WSOP, it’s so much fun to watch. It’s less luck and more bluffing and reading. Play the (wo)man not the cards and all that jazz

I love watching this format.

 

[OzzieJim]

I would agree that 2-7 draw games are superior to straight high. I personally think Badeucey is the best.

I would also note that while the bulk of my 5CD experience is pokerstars play money, so not especially indicative, it seems the average player pool are quite terrible at this game.

Apart from deception and bluffing purposes, you should never be holding a pair + ace and drawing two. Making KKAAX from your KKA draw two might be nice, but it's still going to lose to 222xx who drew three cards, and you're going to be forced to call a bet on the second street. Many people also seem to play any pair (I've seen this on P* and live), and call off huge bets pre-draw with straight or flush draws - which is great for action and bad for their bank accounts.

I think because of the high variance in draw games they're fish friendly (easy to suckout with bad starting hand), but the lack of information means someone thinking in very simple terms of their absolute hand strength instead of relative hand strength and opponent ranges/betting action etc. is going to get cleaned out very quickly.

 

[Choketastic]

No drawing 2 with KKA?
What about with something like JKQ suited?

Drawing 2 to KKA is not good as there is little difference in hand strength between 2 pair with Kings and 2 pair with Aces and Kings. You improve to trips more often when drawing 3 and this is where your money will be made. There is also the fact that when drawing to KKA if your opponent has drawn 3 they can very well have AA themselves and you have now lost a huge amount of your outs. You can however draw 2 to AAK if you believe that your opponent is for certain drawing 3 to AA themselves. Example; villain raises UTG, draws 3, you've noted they only raise utg with with AAxxx when drawing 3. You're kicker with the K will win the hand often as you improve rarely in 5CD. This is a very rare spot but one of the little things which seperates good and bad 5CD players.

Drawing 2 to a pure cathop (3 cards in a row of the same suit 2 spaces either side = 345-TJQ) will result in:
- Straight 4.4%
- Flush 4.1%
- Three of a kind 0.83%
- 2 Pair 2.48%
Total = 11.81% or 1 in 8.467 or approx 1 in 8.5 of getting 2 pair or better. Approx 36% of hitting a pair alone, which when doing so with TJQ is decent.
Much better than a gutshot draw and the real benefit is you can use cathops to balance a draw 2 range when 3 betting. Such as having 345Ax(345 suited), 3 bet, draw 2 and represent trips. This is a very complex strategy though and you're much better off having a simplified range of draw 3 and draw 1, with draw 1 having some bluffs.

LOVE 5CD! I play on pokerstars often. I believe the way pokerstars plays 5CD is correct, open whatever you want, no jacks or better slowing the game down.
I agree 2-7SD NL is a good game but I think there is room for both

 

[moose]

Played a tourney following this format. Pretty fun.

https://www.wsop.com/pdfs/structuresheets/structure_5219_21738.pdf

 

[OzzieJim]

Drawing 2 to KKA is not good as there is little difference in hand strength between 2 pair with Kings and 2 pair with Aces and Kings. You improve to trips more often when drawing 3 and this is where your money will be made. There is also the fact that when drawing to KKA if your opponent has drawn 3 they can very well have AA themselves and you have now lost a huge amount of your outs. You can however draw 2 to AAK if you believe that your opponent is for certain drawing 3 to AA themselves. Example; villain raises UTG, draws 3, you've noted they only raise utg with with AAxxx when drawing 3. You're kicker with the K will win the hand often as you improve rarely in 5CD. This is a very rare spot but one of the little things which seperates good and bad 5CD players.

Drawing 2 to a pure cathop (3 cards in a row of the same suit 2 spaces either side = 345-TJQ) will result in:
- Straight 4.4%
- Flush 4.1%
- Three of a kind 0.83%
- 2 Pair 2.48%
Total = 11.81% or 1 in 8.467 or approx 1 in 8.5 of getting 2 pair or better. Approx 36% of hitting a pair alone, which when doing so with TJQ is decent.
Much better than a gutshot draw and the real benefit is you can use cathops to balance a draw 2 range when 3 betting. Such as having 345Ax(345 suited), 3 bet, draw 2 and represent trips. This is a very complex strategy though and you're much better off having a simplified range of draw 3 and draw 1, with draw 1 having some bluffs.

LOVE 5CD! I play on pokerstars often. I believe the way pokerstars plays 5CD is correct, open whatever you want, no jacks or better slowing the game down.
I agree 2-7SD NL is a good game but I think there is room for both

I think we may have found the 5CD GOAT

 

[ThrowBack]

Played a tourney following this format. Pretty fun.

https://www.wsop.com/pdfs/structuresheets/structure_5219_21738.pdf

Wow no limit 5CD in an event that’s cool

 

[OzzieJim]

I bubbled a Big Bet Mix tournament in Australia this year. I can only really remember playing two hands of 5CD.

1. Jamming on the button with Aces and the blinds folding.
2. Completing in the BB with 9TJQ and hitting an 8, betting out and then it... folding through.

I think tight is right when it comes to draw games or you get put in horrible spots.

Rough jacks patted in 2-7 NL are always agonising to play, I have just started folding them if they're not convertible to an 8 or better.

 

[Choketastic]

Wow no limit 5CD in an event that’s cool

There is also the 2 dealers choice events
https://www.wsop.com/pdfs/structuresheets/structure_5219_21670.pdf
https://www.wsop.com/pdfs/structuresheets/structure_5219_21675.pdf

Shame it doesn't have its own event

I think we may have found the 5CD GOAT

No GOAT but I play it often and very comfortable with basic maths and strategy. Anybody ever wants to chat 5CD I will do my best to give an educated reply, it's my favourite poker game

 

[JustinInMN]

Drawing 2 to a pure cathop (3 cards in a row of the same suit 2 spaces either side = 345-TJQ) will result in:
- Straight 4.4%
- Flush 4.1%
- Three of a kind 0.83%
- 2 Pair 2.48%
Total = 11.81% or 1 in 8.467 or approx 1 in 8.5 of getting 2 pair or better. Approx 36% of hitting a pair alone, which when doing so with TJQ is decent.
Much better than a gutshot draw and the real benefit is you can use cathops to balance a draw 2 range when 3 betting.

Interesting, but that said, if I am playing such a connector, I don't really want to hit one pair with it. Even if it's the best hand, hard to get value from it. But yes, I suppose adding in the two pair and 3 of a kind possibilities, does make the odds better than I assume. But I don't think giving these hands up when I am perfectly comfortable without a 2 card draw in my strategy is okay too.

 

[Kid_Eastwood]

Rough jacks patted in 2-7 NL are always agonising to play, I have just started folding them if they're not convertible to an 8 or better.

Still slightly favourite against a one-card draw.
With the position, against one single player, it's a hand that usually deserves to be played in my opinion.

 

[OzzieJim]

Still slightly favourite against a one-card draw.
With the position, against one single player, it's a hand that usually deserves to be played in my opinion.

1. You're a favourite against a draw 1, totally. What about when you're out of position? Draw 1 to a T/9 or pat and pray they're drawing too.
2. You're basically dead to a pat hand unless you have a great read.
3. They draw 1 and then lead out the betting - you feel sick, you are a favourite against their range but you're either going to call and lose a huge amount of the time or become very exploitable. If you're always folding rough jacks to bets, you may as well fold them predraw.
4. You're a favourite against a draw 1. Your equity plummets multiway.

I'd say JT and bad J9's should be reserved for completing the big blind or opening in late position looking for folds or draw 2 from BB. I'd probably check them back post-draw close to 100% of the time and fold to any serious bets from D1's

Although statistically JT986 is the better hand than 7542X, the implied odds differences are huge. A rough jack is effectively only ever going to serve to pick up the blinds, a single predraw raise or bluffcatch. When I make a 97 or better I can extract real value from marginal pat hands.

 

[Choketastic]

Interesting, but that said, if I am playing such a connector, I don't really want to hit one pair with it. Even if it's the best hand, hard to get value from it. But yes, I suppose adding in the two pair and 3 of a kind possibilities, does make the odds better than I assume. But I don't think giving these hands up when I am perfectly comfortable without a 2 card draw in my strategy is okay too.

Completely agree! Just wanted to offer insight (finally a topic I can contribute to) to the maths behind cathops I would only use them:
- During heads up play. RFI I'm in SB v BB. Defending BB v SB small open.
- 3 bet draw 2 bluff range when OOP v exploitable opponents/Villain opening too wide on BU opens.
- If it has limped to me in BB or there has been a min raise and we are getting good odds with multiple opponents as our nut potential is reasonably high.

Like you said it's a hand I would throw away most of the time

 

[Legend5555]

1. You're a favourite against a draw 1, totally. What about when you're out of position? Draw 1 to a T/9 or pat and pray they're drawing too.
2. You're basically dead to a pat hand unless you have a great read.
3. They draw 1 and then lead out the betting - you feel sick, you are a favourite against their range but you're either going to call and lose a huge amount of the time or become very exploitable. If you're always folding rough jacks to bets, you may as well fold them predraw.
4. You're a favourite against a draw 1. Your equity plummets multiway.

I'd say JT and bad J9's should be reserved for completing the big blind or opening in late position looking for folds or draw 2 from BB. I'd probably check them back post-draw close to 100% of the time and fold to any serious bets from D1's

Although statistically JT986 is the better hand than 7542X, the implied odds differences are huge. A rough jack is effectively only ever going to serve to pick up the blinds, a single predraw raise or bluffcatch. When I make a 97 or better I can extract real value from marginal pat hands.

Convertible Jacks should always be 3bet IP. Rough jacks can be tough. If there are aggresive players behind you, just calling with rough Jacks is out of the question. So it's better to 3 bet or fold them IP hoping the OOP player breaks.

When defending rough jacks from the blinds, it sucks because calling then patting makes your hand pretty face up. So it puts you in the conundrum of again, 3 betting or folding. And I think it largely will have to do with the aggressiveness and position of the opener. If they are opening from early position, you should probably just be folding rough jacks unless the open size is very small. If it's an aggressive player from late position, you can justify 3 bet "bluffing" since they might have some pretty rough hands or 2 card draws. If they call, you get put in the blender, but at least when you pat after 3 betting, they aren't just guaranteed to blast into you post draw like they would if you called and patted.

The thing that people don't realize in single draw is that it's very hard to fold any good one card draw to almost any size 3 bet of the 3 bettor structures their range correctly. Because 1v1 drawing situations run so close and make up a large portion of ranges, you are often at worst 60-40 with a 1 card draw against villain's range. And the upside of hitting a 7 or 8 is so big.

A crazy math thing about this game to keep in mind is that there are more made 9s than 8s and 7s combined. More made Ts than 9s, 8s, and 7s combined. And same for Jacks. This plays a lot into bluffing OOP against a pat hand if you think they will always pat any Jack.

 

[Kid_Eastwood]

1. You're a favourite against a draw 1, totally. What about when you're out of position? Draw 1 to a T/9 or pat and pray they're drawing too.
2. You're basically dead to a pat hand unless you have a great read.
3. They draw 1 and then lead out the betting - you feel sick, you are a favourite against their range but you're either going to call and lose a huge amount of the time or become very exploitable. If you're always folding rough jacks to bets, you may as well fold them predraw.
4. You're a favourite against a draw 1. Your equity plummets multiway.

I'd say JT and bad J9's should be reserved for completing the big blind or opening in late position looking for folds or draw 2 from BB. I'd probably check them back post-draw close to 100% of the time and fold to any serious bets from D1's

Although statistically JT986 is the better hand than 7542X, the implied odds differences are huge. A rough jack is effectively only ever going to serve to pick up the blinds, a single predraw raise or bluffcatch. When I make a 97 or better I can extract real value from marginal pat hands.

Your reasonning is correct.

This is why I mostly play rough J (JTxxx) in position and against one player only.

Most of the time, I play it agressively (3-bet) pre-draw. In case of 4-bet, I'll often fold unless I've a good read / tell.

This is why I think rough Jack IP plays quite straight-forward.