1-1 nlhe home game hand. (1 Viewer)

[JustinInMN]

From last night in my neighborhood, 8 handed game, hero utg+1.

Hero starts hand with 87 and is the effective stack covered by all villians mentioned.

Hero holds



and limps, villan 1 (loose-passive) calls in lojack, villan 2 (new guy second hand) calls in hijack, villian 3 is the host raises to 5 from cutoff (Looseish aggressive, but not a maniac), button and blinds fold.

Hero?

 

[Kain8]

Nothing wrong with cold calling the $4 raise (which is WAY too small from the cutoff) and seeing what develops. If you flop some good equity, you can take it from there. No matter the flop though, you should be checking.

 

[v1pe]

Pop it up to 4-5 pre, whatever you think is going to get at least a few folds.

As played, definitely call, check entire range on flop.

 

[Jonesey07]

I'm in the call-check camp as well. Let the agressor trap himself if you kill the flop, or you don't lose any more if it runs cold.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Flat and plan to trap if you flop anything good.

But don't make a habit of limping into a guy who's liable to raise you frequently.

 

[DrStrange]

So . . . .Hero wants to be in a low SPR environment with ATs?

What is the plan if Hero flops top pair? Is Hero pot committed with $82 behind and a ~$20 pot?

It seems to me Hero is headed to a) whiff flop and fold, b) pair the flop and win $20, c) get stacked with top pair, or d) smash the flop / catch the draw.

Me? I am folding this -=- DrStrange

 

[Kain8]

So . . . .Hero wants to be in a low SPR environment with ATs? -=- DrStrange

Are you advocating for a raise instead of a limp as Hero's first action or a straight up fold?

 

[Jonesey07]

So . . . .Hero wants to be in a low SPR environment with ATs?

What is the plan if Hero flops top pair? Is Hero pot committed with $82 behind and a ~$20 pot?

It seems to me Hero is headed to a) whiff flop and fold, b) pair the flop and win $20, c) get stacked with top pair, or d) smash the flop / catch the draw.

Me? I am folding this -=- DrStrange

Can I ask then, what hands would you call a pre-flop raise with? You can't only play AA-KK-QQ-AK and expect to win at poker. Sometimes it's worth playing a non-premium hand.

Please don't take this as a personal attack, just a genuine question because you do have a lot of knowledge and I've stolen some of it from your posts on this board!

 

[DoubleEagle]

Can I ask then, what hands would you call a pre-flop raise with? You can't only play AA-KK-QQ-AK and expect to win at poker. Sometimes it's worth playing a non-premium hand.

Please don't take this as a personal attack, just a genuine question because you do have a lot of knowledge and I've stolen some of it from your posts on this board!

Don’t open limp.

 

[Jonesey07]

Don’t open limp.

I normally do not but the hand was presented as a limp, which is why I asked.

 

[v1pe]

Can I ask then, what hands would you call a pre-flop raise with? You can't only play AA-KK-QQ-AK and expect to win at poker. Sometimes it's worth playing a non-premium hand.

Please don't take this as a personal attack, just a genuine question because you do have a lot of knowledge and I've stolen some of it from your posts on this board!

I think Dr. might have been advocating for a fold UTG1 with ATs vs the limp. IMO open raise > fold >> limp.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Of all the hands to be OOP with against multiple opponents, ATs is by far one of the better ones.

In this spot I'd call which will entice the other limpers to call as well. Then I'm 'checking dark' before the flop is spread.

I don't necessarily agree with the advice that you need to play 'fit or fold' poker in this spot. Given your proximity to the aggressor, a strong check-raise after checking dark on a dry flop probably will usually squeeze out the middle limpers, and the preflop raiser won't likely able to continue unless he/she has a strong holding.

 

[Jonesey07]

I think Dr. might have been advocating for a fold UTG1 with ATs vs the limp. IMO open raise > fold >> limp.

I get that, but the hand was presented as already having limped in, action back on the hero after a modest raise. My line of thinking here is you cannot always fold to aggression with a non-premium hand. If that's the case, you are going to lose more money than you will ever win.

 

[v1pe]

Yeah once we limp I think we definitely can't fold.

I get that, but the hand was presented as already having limped in, action back on the hero after a modest raise. My line of thinking here is you cannot always fold to aggression with a non-premium hand. If that's the case, you are going to lose more money than you will ever win.

 

[JustinInMN]

Wow that's a lot of replies in two hours.

Yes, I fully get the argument open raise > limp call. Let's just say hero may have went off script on this one.

As most of you suspect hero calls as do the remaining villians. Four way flop 22 in pot.

Flop is


Hero is first.

 

[Jonesey07]

Ugh. Normally I'd check any flop, but you want to make sure to punish anyone that stays on a flush draw. I'd lead out for $20 and either take it down now or hope to not see any more hearts.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I get that, but the hand was presented as already having limped in, action back on the hero after a modest raise. My line of thinking here is you cannot always fold to aggression with a non-premium hand. If that's the case, you are going to lose more money than you will ever win.

You can't always fold to aggression, true. And here, I'd advocate for a call, especially with the preflop raiser being a loose-aggressive-ish type. You can get some value out of someone like that with a hand like this if you hit the flop.

But if that same PFR came from a nit who rarely raises? Fold. If the same guy raised preflop but a nit flatted on the button or SB? Fold.

This hand isn't terrible, and I'd happily play it in a shorter-handed game, but 8-handed it's the type of hand that often gets you into spots where you have top pair and you're either dominated or against an overpair. Those are the majority of the spots where you'll get action, anyway. Not really worth limp/calling preflop. Either raise coming in or fold for the $1.

 

[Jonesey07]

You can't always fold to aggression, true. And here, I'd advocate for a call, especially with the preflop raiser being a loose-aggressive-ish type. You can get some value out of someone like that with a hand like this if you hit the flop.

But if that same PFR came from a nit who rarely raises? Fold. If the same guy raised preflop but a nit flatted on the button or SB? Fold.

This hand isn't terrible, and I'd happily play it in a shorter-handed game, but 8-handed it's the type of hand that often gets you into spots where you have top pair and you're either dominated or against an overpair. Those are the majority of the spots where you'll get action, anyway. Not really worth limp/calling preflop. Either raise coming in or fold for the $1.

I'm not debating the fact that a raise or fold at first action isn't the correct play, just stating that in the case of a limp, you can't just auto-fold otherwise you are going to be donating money to aggressive players.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Wow that's a lot of replies in two hours.

Yes, I fully get the argument open raise > limp call. Let's just say hero went off script on this one.

As most of you suspect hero calls as do the remaining villians. Four way flop 22 in pot.

Flop is


Hero is first.

Check the flop with the intention of shoving over a c-bet from the preflop raiser. Probably want to check-raise all-in on any sequence of bets that only includes one bet, with or without callers.

Flush draws probably aren't folding for a straight bet of $20 here (especially if other players are on deeper effective stacks), but a check-raise should do the job.

 

[Kain8]

Check the flop with the intention of shoving over a c-bet from the preflop raiser. Probably want to check-raise all-in on any sequence of bets that only includes one bet, with or without callers.

Flush draws probably aren't folding for a straight bet of $20 here (especially if other players are on deeper effective stacks), but a check-raise should do the job.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I'm not debating the fact that a raise or fold at first action isn't the correct play, just stating that in the case of a limp, you can't just auto-fold otherwise you are going to be donating money to aggressive players.

Agreed. Better to make it a point to be the aggressive player yourself.

 

[Jonesey07]

Agreed. Better to make it a point to be the aggressive player yourself.

Honestly I wouldn't have hated a 3-bet to $15 or so.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Honestly I wouldn't have hated a 3-bet to $15 or so.

A 3-bet might not be a bad play, especially if the preflop raiser frequently raises not-great hands in this kind of spot.

With this stack size, though, I think a 3-bet needs to be nice and big. You can't 3-bet with 87 BB and then spend the rest of the hand trying to find a fold. It's basically a pot-committing move, so you gotta set up a good auto-shoving spot on the flop, ideally heads-up and with about a pot-sized bet left.

A 3-bet of $25 should be the right size, making a pot of just over $50 if called, with $62 left in stack.

 

[v1pe]

Check raise the flop for sure. Flop is wet and very likely to hit the PRFs range.

You can rep plenty of OESD and flush draw semibluffs with a nice big check raise and your are most likely way ahead.

 

[BGinGA]

I check-raise the flop (probably not all-in, though) and hope the hits on the turn. Only shoving if two+ villains have already put more chips in the pot.

 

[DrStrange]

Hero's stack size relative to the preflop raise and number of players in the hand determine what I propose Hero might do. In this hand, Hero's stack size is awkward to how the hand is shaping up. Limping for a buck then folding is better than starting down a path preflop that often leads to problems post flop.

Other people have expressed concern about getting "punished" for limping by more aggressive players. I observe two things.

First, I would be more focused on the safety of Hero's remaining $86 than getting maximum value out of the one dollar spent on the limp.

Second, Hero has meta game tools available to deal with "punish the limper" style villains when playing this sort of shorter stack. That is a limp / jam plan with a "premium" hand, which doesn't need to be a top 1% hand just well ahead of the punishers range. Hero can give up a lot of "stolen limps" when he stands to make an occasional big score.

There are not many hands I would choose to limp/call given Hero's stack size. Maybe only mid-pairs. I think T9s is a better limp/call hand than ATs - not that I would advocate calling with either hand. As noted above, it is not a fatal flaw to limp fold occasionally. There are plenty of hands that play well for a limp with 86bb and a prospective SPR of 10+ vs playing in a raise pot and an SPR~4

Please take careful note that everything changes with deeper stacks. Give Hero an effective stack of 300+bb and he should be eager to play a suited ace for a limp/call. Not that Hero should always play ace-rag suited that way, but he can do it from time to time.

As for the flop action on this hand, Hero should be planning a check/jam or check/raise. Donking could be ok, but I think villain might c-bet a lot more hands than he calls a donk bet with. Let's take a chance and hopefully make the hand easy.

 

[Moxie Mike]

...Hero should be planning a check/jam or check/raise. Donking could be ok, but I think villain might c-bet a lot more hands than he calls a donk bet with. Let's take a chance and hopefully make the hand easy.

Now imagine if Hero had checked the flop dark. The preflop aggressor almost invariably will c-bet the flop if for no other reason than to 'find out where he/she's at'. Hero's proximity to the bettor makes this an easy shove - and either get in as a likely heavy favorite or take down a halfway decent pot with no resistance.

 

[BGinGA]

I'm halfway expecting something really crazy after Hero checks the flop here -- like a pot-size bet from V1 (AJ?), a shove by V2 (44), and a call all-in by V3 (KhQh royal draw)..... and action to Hero.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Our position sucks and our hand is one that can run into spots where it's dominated. If the table is generally loose/passive limping is fine, with the intention of a big multi-way pot where lesser flushes or holdings will pay you off when you hit big.

Alternatively, a raise preflop can be fine too, although given the low stakes we're likely to wind up multi-way out of position in a bloated pot, which is even less ideal (unless you can raise and truly isolate the field, but I doubt it at these stakes most of the time)

A fold isn't terrible, as the good Dr said, it really depends on your own personal skill post-flop and the flavor of the table.

As played, I agree with going for a check-raise/jam on the flop. Our hand is monstrous but with so many other players in we really need to charge them the max to chase any draws.

 

[JustinInMN]

Okay, @BGinGA actually guessed some of what happens next. Not quite that crazy, but he's close enough where I will take it as a sign it's probably time for the next reveal.

Hero bets 10, V1 calls, V2 raises to 40, V3 (pf raiser) folds, back on hero 30 to call, 82 in pot, what do you do?

Some of you have already mentioned plans if facing a raise, but we'll see what you have to say before moving forward.