When did this hobby change (2 Viewers)

[DMack]

And to address the "doxing" thread that people are talking about; yes that happened toward the end of Chip Donkeys, but it didn't have anything to do with me closing down the website. Those wheels were long since in motion already. I had already been in talks with several people about turning it over to someone else long before that thread was ever even started. The overwhelming majority of people disagreed with how I handled that situation and I've had a lot of time to reflect on it since. My views on that person have not changed. Whoever that person was (I still have no clue who they are, if they are even here on PCF, if they were just a random troll trying to stir shit up or what), but whoever it was was spouting hateful racist bullshit and defending bigoted police officers and police brutality against black people. There was more to the story than what was posted publicly, but I won't go into that. His hateful speech caused me to look into his account because it was so bad that I thought he couldn't possibly be a real person acting in good faith. I thought he must have been someone else just trolling everyone and I was trying to see if he was a previously banned member as we had several of them keep popping up and trolling people (I even thought it could have been bergs just trying to stir shit up). What I discovered was that this anonymous person had registered with an email handle that suggested he/she was a cop and that they almost always logged in from an IP address in Ferguson, Missouri (a pretty ridiculous "coincidence" if it was one). Who they are, what his/her name is in real life, or if they're even here on PCF, I still have no clue, and I don't care. As an admin, instead of getting involved in the thread itself and sharing my opinions of this person and calling them out as a probable cop from Ferguson, maybe I should have just banned the account and closed the thread instead. I don't know what the right way to handle a bigoted cop from Ferguson Missouri is, but apparently informing others that the bigot they were engaging with was likely a cop wasn't it. Perhaps I'm a bit further along the autism spectrum than I would think though, because I still don't share the views of the majority here, and I don't feel as though I "doxed" anyone. It's difficult to "dox" someone if you don't even know who they are, in my opinion. But, it's water under the bridge at this point for me. I really don't care. But it had nothing at all to do with why I closed down Chip Donkeys. The actual reasons I closed it are expressed above, but the Cliff Notes are that it demanded way more of my time than I was prepared for and able to give it, and I had just become a new father and returned to work full time. Something had to give, and for me it was the site. And I'm glad I closed it down.

Travis, there’s no hiding we don’t agree on anything, except maybe your Lakeshores, but we can even disagree about certain things with those (ie you need to sell me some so I can complete my set). I thought your post was pretty decent. That was until you went into your version of the doxing incident at CD.

I’m very glad @Chippy McChiperson, addressed it. He actually gave me the courage to say something. I have seen your wrath, and I wanted to post about it last night, but couldn’t find the guts to do so.

What you did in that incident was disturbing, at the very least. That was a discussion about policing incidents throughout the country. Half were pro-police, half weren’t. Discussions got heated, but everyone was making their point and people were hashing out their thoughts. Then you got involved.

Of all the amped up discussions I’ve seen on these forums, I’ve never seen anyone go for the throat moreso than what you did. You would have made OJ proud. Even he couldn’t wield the knife with such precision as what you showed.

There was no racism, hatred, or bigotry involved in that discussion. None. Except from you. Your pent up inner hatred, bigotry, and vitriol flowed through you during that debate that you couldn’t grasp what was even being talked about. Travis, what’s more scary is that you wrote that you still don’t think you were in the wrong. You did not have ONE SINGLE PERSON agree with what you were doing, yet you still continued to carve a path of destruction, and you weren’t going to let anyone get in your way. And when EVERYONE called you out, you threw a tantrum the likes three year olds across the country had never seen. Even those that agreed with your stance on the subject told you you were way out of line. You had moderators of your own site that tried to reign you in, but you could not be controlled. One of the moderators, who is one of the most respectable guys that’s been around forever, essentially quit on the spot because of your behavior. Who could blame him?

I believe you said something about Bergs driving people out of the hobby and community because of the way he treated people. Any chance you might have done the same with what transpired at CD?

 

[FordPickup92]

Should I dare ask.... I never was around for chiptalk... can someone tell me what Olivia's are???

 

[JRReynolds6181]

Is there any way to see these conversations or have they been taken off the internets?

 

[rowlin]

Should I dare ask.... I never was around for chiptalk... can someone tell me what Olivia's are???

The search function is awesome.

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/thre...sample-set-50-1-2-5-and-25.36722/#post-676496

 

[Saoliver]

Should I dare ask.... I never was around for chiptalk... can someone tell me what Olivia's are???

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/chipsets-with-black-one-dollar-chips.43065/#post-802416

 

[FordPickup92]

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/chipsets-with-black-one-dollar-chips.43065/#post-802416

Thank you!

 

[Lil Tuna]

Is there any way to see these conversations or have they been taken off the internets?

It’s better for everyone they are gone!
Trust me on this.

 

[RainmanTrail]

I have no doubt that being a mod isn’t as easy as most people think, but a lot of this post is revisionist history.

Or perhaps it's just someone else's perspective other than your own? Call it as you see it, but it's my truth.

First, I’d like to agree that in many threads, there was a lot of GB bashing, this is true. But imho it was needed at the time, because there were so many people frustrated with how things were going on here, and you couldn’t openly talk about it.

Sure. It also provided a good resource for people to learn about what happened. And it had the benefit of doing so with considerably less risk to those involved than posting those same conversations on PCF would have. I completely understand though why these conversations wouldn't have been wanted here. And looking back, I support their decisions to not allow them.

Secondly, I’m not sure who you’re referring to as ”crew” in “Bergs and Crew”, but as far as I know, other than Bergs, you never had a problem with anyone else from our group. In fact, I’d say the fantasy drafts with Bergs, Butler, Podo, and myself, were huge hits, which provided good positive content and drew a lot of people to CD. Let’s be honest, youve always had an over the top hatred of Bergs, I know he’s gone off on you in the past, but you need to get over it dude. You know they say holding grudges is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die from it. Let it go dude.

Sure, he's perfectly capable of creating good, fun content. But that's not why I say he is a cancer to forums. It's because he is also incapable of not shitting on others.

Honestly, I could probably only give you a couple of names off the top of my head when I say "and crew", but I won't mention them. I'm over it. I just know that bergs typically attacked people with a mob mentality. But he was surely the "mob boss" so to speak. Once he was removed from the equation, most everyone else was fine. I generally tried to give people the benefit of the doubt. Hence I don't even know who all I'm referring to when I say "and crew". I just know there was a crew.

I hold zero grudges. Maybe I'll even be friends with him some day. I'd gladly share a beer with him at a meetup and hear him out. He doesn't affect my life one bit. Recalling these stories about chip donkeys is probably the first time I've even thought about him in over a year. I'm just explaining what happened from my perspective and addressing the topics in this thread, of which he is one.

Thirdly, the doxing incident was completely out of line. You used a persons private email and IP address to deduce that they were a police officer in Missouri near (not in) Ferguson, and outed them. Regardless of their opinions (and I don’t recall anything racist, even though I disagreed with nearly everything they were saying), this was way way way out of line. And when you got called out on it by pretty much everyone, you threw a temper tantrum. I tried to whitewash it earlier because it’s in the past, but if you’re going to misrepresent what happened I’ll set the record straight. It was completely unprofessional and uncalled for, and I still haven’t seen you own up to it or apologize.

Like I said. There's much more to the story than what you guys saw. Not getting into it. As far as waiting for me to apologize, you'd be waiting a very, very long time. Let's just say I'm confident I could change your opinion over a beer, but I'm not interested in having that conversation. So let's just move on.

You do make some very good points with the rest of your post, and I do think you’re a valuable member of the community, but I think you see everything as good or evil, and you try to rationalize things and pigeonhole them into one category or the other, but life isn’t that simple. There’s good and bad in almost everything and everybody dude.

Thank you. I've tried to approach the community differently after my experiences at Chip Donkeys. I've definitely learned a lot.

Your assumption about me seeing everything as good or evil, black or white though is pretty far off. I'm very much a shades of gray kind of guy. I rarely see anything as black or white. And yes, I definitely agree that there is good and bad in almost everything and everyone. I'm confident that bergs is a great guy in some settings. I've heard many people attest to it and I believe them.

 

[gopherblue]

Should I dare ask.... I never was around for chiptalk... can someone tell me what Olivia's are???

Oh, God...you’re done for.

 

[RainmanTrail]

I do appreciate the well written perspective from @RainmanTrail and find it especially interesting as so many of the negative aspects that he focuses on, I barely remember. If you asked me to describe the Chip Donkey experience, I mostly remember AMA's and Fantasy drafts which I thought were incredibly fun and inclusive of everyone. Yes, there were more arguments over NAGB's and boat chips on CD, but thats only because those conversations were allowed over there, while being censored over here. I feel like the site would have been successful had travis elected to keep it open, but I also dont blame him for walking away.

Its important to note that CD came at a time when people needed it, just as PCF had done previously for the Chiptalk community. Its really the same story, and whats shouldnt be overlooked is that Butler, Bergs, Courage, Bginga etc. all played a big part in the CT exodus to PCF. At that time it was @BGinGA trolling Ten with avatars and free speech, while getting banned for possibly the stupidest reason of all time.

I know Bergs in person, have met BG a few times, never met rainman, but have shared many of PMS, and they are all the same people. They can have abrasive online personalities, but seem nothing like that person in real life. I think they are all great contributors and we all lose, when they aren't part of the cipping community.

I didn't mean for my post to be an overview of all things Chip Donkeys. There were definitely some fun and great discussions happening there as well. In fact the majority of the discussions were a lot of fun. But the same is true here. I was merely cherry picking the bad in an effort to explain what happened, why I closed it down and it's effect on the community since these topics were being discussed here.

I think it served a good purpose. A lot of healing and venting occurred there that allowed some people to move on from a lot of the drama. It was a good learning experience overall. But looking back, I'm glad that we don't have two separate forums, one for the "haves" and one for the "have nots", and eventually it began to look like that's where things might have been headed if CD had kept running. Another one of the reasons I wanted to shut it down.

 

[JMC9389]

Don't take this as me shitting on the Olivia chips, but they just don't do it for me. I'm not a fan of oversized inlays, and not even those change my mind.

 

[FordPickup92]

Don't take this as me shitting on the Olivia chips, but they just don't do it for me. I'm not a fan of oversized inlays, and not even those change my mind.

Same. I wasnt impressed honestly lol

For the record I'm not knocking the chips, to some they're beautiful and everyone has their own tastes. Just not personally blown out of the water

 

[RainmanTrail]

Travis, there’s no hiding we don’t agree on anything, except maybe your Lakeshores, but we can even disagree about certain things with those (ie you need to sell me some so I can complete my set). I thought your post was pretty decent. That was until you went into your version of the doxing incident at CD.

I’m very glad @Chippy McChiperson, addressed it. He actually gave me the courage to say something. I have seen your wrath, and I wanted to post about it last night, but couldn’t find the guts to do so.

What you did in that incident was disturbing, at the very least. That was a discussion about policing incidents throughout the country. Half were pro-police, half weren’t. Discussions got heated, but everyone was making their point and people were hashing out their thoughts. Then you got involved.

Of all the amped up discussions I’ve seen on these forums, I’ve never seen anyone go for the throat moreso than what you did. You would have made OJ proud. Even he couldn’t wield the knife with such precision as what you showed.

There was no racism, hatred, or bigotry involved in that discussion. None. Except from you. Your pent up inner hatred, bigotry, and vitriol flowed through you during that debate that you couldn’t grasp what was even being talked about. Travis, what’s more scary is that you wrote that you still don’t think you were in the wrong. You did not have ONE SINGLE PERSON agree with what you were doing, yet you still continued to carve a path of destruction, and you weren’t going to let anyone get in your way. And when EVERYONE called you out, you threw a tantrum the likes three year olds across the country had never seen. Even those that agreed with your stance on the subject told you you were way out of line. You had moderators of your own site that tried to reign you in, but you could not be controlled. One of the moderators, who is one of the most respectable guys that’s been around forever, essentially quit on the spot because of your behavior. Who could blame him?

I believe you said something about Bergs driving people out of the hobby and community because of the way he treated people. Any chance you might have done the same with what transpired at CD?

I'd prefer to just move on from this topic. There's really no value in discussing it further. I respect that you see things differently than me. That's ok. I only addressed it because others here had mentioned they thought it had something to do with my decision to shut down CD. I just wanted to clarify that it didn't.

 

[upNdown]

Don't take this as me shitting on the Olivia chips, but they just don't do it for me. I'm not a fan of oversized inlays, and not even those change my mind.

I agree completely. I think Olivia’s were crowned a grail set back when there were far fewer options. Now that there are so many more casino sets available (not to mention other stuff) I think it’s easier to evaluate them as something less than “grail.” But they'll always be legendary to some people. Hopefully somebody can fact check me. I assume the Olivia’s showed up before the majority of sets that the chip room brought to market?

 

[RainmanTrail]

Something else worth mentioning about the banning of bergs is that it wasn't just about how he mistreated others. He also made it his life goal to ensure the destruction of Chip Talk back in the day when things weren't going to his liking, and he did the same thing again here with PCF. I'm sure there is MUCH we never got to see, but make no mistake about it, he was hell bent on ensuring the failure of this forum after the group buy went down. He was absolutely relentless in his pursuit to trash anyone and anything he could that was related to the GB. It was almost psychopathic. You just can't keep someone like that around if you want a forum to succeed, even if you think you can tolerate them shitting on others.

 

[BarrieJ3]

Anyone seen all the cool stuff coming up recently? Super Bowl squares with $5 chips (lmao, yeah right, $5 was a joke apparently!), a thread for anyone to join in building a custom set and vote on decisions, fun giveaways to noobs and others, people in Vegas offering to pick up chips for others, upcoming meetups.

Even the same folks who do nothing but....be detract have paused. Maybe everyone made a resolution, idk. Anyways, any of you make a final table, I’ll pay my way over to be on that rail (and on that note, @Perthmike thread on his first Vegas trip was one of my fav, in part cause of everyone’s involvement). Here’s to hoping someone makes me come through on that commitment this year!!!

 

[Mojo1312]

Should I dare ask.... I never was around for chiptalk... can someone tell me what Olivia's are???

Here is a link: https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/olivias-poker-hall-sample-set-50-1-2-5-and-25.36722/

 

[FordPickup92]

View attachment 401298

Here is a link: https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/olivias-poker-hall-sample-set-50-1-2-5-and-25.36722/

Thank you!!!

 

[Lil Tuna]

I'd prefer to just move on from this topic. There's really no value in discussing it further. I respect that you see things differently than me. That's ok. I only addressed it because others here had mentioned they thought it had something to do with my decision to shut down CD. I just wanted to clarify that it didn't.

Travis,
In all fairness, most of the other points made in your post were great and any of us who have ever dealt with multiple people, customers, members or clients have an idea of the work involved.
The other topic never has to be mentioned AGAIN.
For anyone who questions this, I’ll confirm for Travis that this was not the reason for CD shutting down! It for whatever reason happened to be a BIG TURD that landed in the middle of what was a different and fun alternative to things at the time.
Not trying to rehash anything or bust your chops, all I’m saying is that there’s a couple topics in your post that you could have left buried.
Like I said, you can’t make everyone happy all the time.
Great insight and clarification on trying to run a chip website though. Personally it sounds like way too much work for me.
I appreciate very much the work that @Tommy does here on PCF. I also appreciated the work @RainmanTrail did at CD.
Hopefully this is enough said on the past.
Happy Chipping to everyone!

 

[RainmanTrail]

I often live life full throttle. Sometimes I have to pull the e-brake. I probably make more mistakes than most, but I don't have many regrets, just lessons learned and new adventures ahead.

Also, I have Lakeshores & Cali Rounders.

IMG_20200114_214306.jpg

• RainmanTrail
• Jan 15, 2020

Lakeshore Inn Splash

• RainmanTrail
• Aug 8, 2019

 

[Taghkanic]

Speaking of Life of Brian, does anyone remember the name if Bigus Dickus' WIFE?

Incontinentia Buttox

 

[hdgeno]

Don't take this as me shitting on the Olivia chips, but they just don't do it for me. I'm not a fan of oversized inlays, and not even those change my mind.

Same. I wasnt impressed honestly lol

For the record I'm not knocking the chips, to some they're beautiful and everyone has their own tastes. Just not personally blown out of the water

Right up there with the best ever RHC chips, the colors in person really popped compared to what you'll see in most photos. Also super rare, so that adds to the sets status.

 

[FordPickup92]

Right up there with the best ever RHC chips, the colors in person really popped compared to what you'll see in most photos. Also super rare, so that adds to the sets status.

I figured they were pretty rare, which is very cool for the people who own sets or samples

 

[Taghkanic]

Re: Moderation and banning:

I ran for almost a decade a grassroots nonprofit organization, which I grew from an ad hoc association of about 20 people to an incorporated 501(c)3 with over 4,000 paid-up members, not to mention another 12,000+ other nonpaying petition signers. This was pre-social media, thank god, but we had an extremely active listserv, as well as (after a couple of years) a storefront headquarters.

We were working on a controversial, stressful regional issue, against a huge corporation, which spent $60 million against us. (We eventually won.) On any given day, I’d receive literally dozens of anxiety-ridden, demanding emails, which had to be patiently answered.

At the office, I also often had much of my day taken up by face-to-face visits from anxious, stressed, and sometimes pissed off members. Or just newbies who somehow had not managed to learn about an issue that was in our local newspaper 4-5 days a week for years, and wanted me to drop whatever legal or fundraising work I was doing, to explain the whole thing from soup to nuts for them in 15 minutes.

I mention all this only to sympathize with the mods here... It is not easy managing an unruly, sprawling membership.

On only a handful of occasions, my board President and I expelled people from the group. That meant they could not participate in our active listserv, were unwelcome at meetings, did not receive meeting notices and snail mailings, etc.

We never booted anyone without first taking time to try to work through the disruptive member’s issues, and hear them out. Sometimes their divisive, mean-spirited antics might come and go; sometimes it would be months and months before the hammer finally dropped, when they simply went too far. (In one case, it was pretty obvious that the person was a company plant, sent to sow discord, and this “member” was axed within weeks.)

As a rule, we only banned people once it became absolutely clear that:

(A) Their behavior was objectively harming the group as a whole, because it became such a distraction, or because it was fomenting divisions or otherwise impeding our mission, or some combination of these;​

​

(B) Their behavior was incurable—that is, no matter how politely, or firmly, or menacingly we told them to stop it, they lacked the self-control to change.​

Some of the above, I think, applies to online forums. If someone’s behavior becomes a problem, but they’re valued members in other respects, you try your best to work things out with them. Even if they aren’t particularly valued, you try to nudge them in a more productive direction. But at some point, once in a while you have to get rid of them for the good of the herd.

Our preferred parting words were “Consider forming your own group, to fight the fight in your own way, and we would be glad to be allies.” (They never did.)

 

[krafticus]

Wow, people don’t usually reply to threads I create.

There is some great conversation in this thread, and I appreciate that. I didn’t say I don’t like it here, just that it’s different. I was going to take an extended break, let some things sink/settle in for a while; however, at the end of the day, it’s still a good place to be.

Yes, a set of posts/events set me off. Yes, I feel that there are more for sale posts than productive content. Yes, it still bothers me that we’re closer to a “letgo” forum than a Chiptalk forum. Some people are just nasty to each other. I’ve been guilty, and I apologize.

With the bad, there is still good people, good intentions, and a lot of friendships have been made. I was contacted via text, FB messenger, and had some good face to face conversation at @longflop game. My local guys and gals are amazing people.

I’ve worked hard to get a good game going here in Maryland, and my game usually has no less than 5 PCF’ers playing. I’ve had a few meetups with mixed success. I’d do damn near anything for them, and I know they’ve all got my back.

If you care for more details on who/what/why, pm me. Call me. Text me. Whatever. Don’t care and want me to go away, that’s fine too. I’ll ignore the noise. I’ll continue to ignore the classifieds when I feel they are out of my interest (and 99% are). I’ll try to add better content as well. For now though, I’ll be a casual observer from the sidelines. I’ll be logged in, just keeping quiet.

Hell, maybe I’ll just start ignoring people. I could probably start with 2 and most of the for sale ads would disappear . ( weird, links and emojis aren’t working from my phone).

So, I still like most of the people, some of the content, and will just filter out the noise.

Mark

 

[Taghkanic]

More than flippers trying to make profit off their chips, I get annoyed by the exact opposite thing:

When I offer a rack or two at a really favorable price—way lower than I’d sell them on eBay—then come down even a little more in PMs... Then a PCF buyer tries to chisel me for a last $5-$10 off the already steeply-discounted price.

I mean, c’mon. It’s a trivial amount of money to both of us. So why angle the well-intentioned, non-exploitative seller? It deters people from offering better, PCF-friendly deals.

This is by no means the norm. But I’ve experienced it several times in the past few months. Maybe that’s why people are listing things higher: knowing that the buyers are going to ask for an even bigger discount.

 

[BarrieJ3]

This is by no means the norm. But I’ve experienced it several times in the past few months. Maybe that’s why people are listing things higher: knowing that the buyers are going to ask for an even bigger discount.

Lol I’ve long thought this, but mostly just because I’m shitty at haggling. Everyone ask for at least their $5 off a rack, and I always say sure but wonder, why is $5 make or breaking it for you?

Im actually hoping to get out to China once traveling restrictions are lifted to shop at their primary knock off mall. Everything’s negotiable and Ill be uncomfortable as all get out, but it will be a great exercise. Then I’ll be coming back here to negotiate my $5 back on transactions!

 

[RichMahogany]

Lol I’ve long thought this, but mostly just because I’m shitty at haggling. Everyone ask for at least their $5 off a rack, and I always say sure but wonder, why is $5 make or breaking it for you?

I’ve had this happen on eBay before

Them: would you be willing to take X amount off of the price?
Me: no, sorry.
Them: c’mon, why not? It’s only $X
Me: if it’s only $ X then you should have no problem paying it

Lol

 

[Pesto628]

More than flippers trying to make profit off their chips, I get annoyed by the exact opposite thing:

When I offer a rack or two at a really favorable price—way lower than I’d sell them on eBay—then come down even a little more in PMs... Then a PCF buyer tries to chisel me for a last $5-$10 off the already steeply-discounted price.

I mean, c’mon. It’s a trivial amount of money to both of us. So why angle the well-intentioned, non-exploitative seller? It deters people from offering better, PCF-friendly deals.

This is by no means the norm. But I’ve experienced it several times in the past few months. Maybe that’s why people are listing things higher: knowing that the buyers are going to ask for an even bigger discount.

I didn’t really want to chime in here but I’ve experienced the same exact frustrating experience when trying to sell on this forum and I’m glad someone brought it up because to me it is not far off from when people play the part of price police on supposed “flippers”. I list at below my cost or at “market price” and then receive dms from members trying to nickel and dime me. At the end of the day it’s a classified section and it’s a free market, but I find it ironic that a lot of the people I see complaining about opportunists are also the ones that end up in my dms to trying to squeeze me out of a few extra bucks. That being said, I think the buying and selling aspect of this site is perfectly fine and prices should be set at whatever anyone wants as long as someone isn’t trying to run a legitimate scam. At the end of the day, we are all adults and if someone wants to list a set a dice chips for $15k and another person wants to buy them, that’s between the buyer and seller and is cool with me as long as there is no misrepresentation going on.

As far as the OP, this forum is what you make of it. I’ve met some great people in real life thanks to this place. It’s best not to take posts here too seriously. As a member of other hobby forums, I can tell you that these types of “what happened to this place” threads always pop up from time to time and these places will change as the membership grows.

 

[DMack]

I don’t mind price negotiating at all. If chips are priced right, there usually doesn’t need to be any haggling. I’ve been the haggled and haggler. Both on several occasions. I’ve also gladly paid what sellers are asking because the chips were priced right, or it’s something I really wanted. Sometimes, there are chips I desperately want, but they are listed so much higher than what they should be that I don’t even bother. And then I watch as they get bumped daily, without a price drop, for the next five months. To me, that’s far more annoying than anyone trying to negotiate a bit.