The politics of dealing with a cheater (5 Viewers)

[Taghkanic]

Re: video: I’d need set-ups for both tables, and cameras which wouldn’t be obvious in a really minimal decor where small stuff sticks out.

I think the facts as they are are already solid, especially as the other watcher is an objective, no-nonsense guy who is close with the cheater and is a winning player in our game. He thus can’t be accused of either bias, or jealously.

 

[bsdunbar1]

It does matter even in your example. I am not saying cheating for small amounts doesn't matter. All cheating is a problem. However, someone stealing $20 is different than stealing $2,000.

A thief is a thief.
We play .50/$1 and I bet the individual I booted was up >$5000 over the course of time he played on our group.

 

[detroitdad]

That is so weird how different you and myself see the subject. You laugh off cheating in Monopoly, and forgive micro stakes money, but $500 is where you draw the line. I personally think if you cheat even in Monopoly your character is flawed. You mindset isn't how can I win playing the best of my ability it's how do I win by cheating since it's not significant amount of money. Call me a liar but I don't and have never cheated a game of Monopoly. Even to the point of hurting my own self if I can't remember if I got my go money bc I was taking care of the other 5 people since I bank.

I completely agree with this statement. You do know who your talking to right? shouldn't be surprising.

 

[saleen121212]

It does matter even in your example. I am not saying cheating for small amounts doesn't matter. All cheating is a problem. However, someone stealing $20 is different than stealing $2,000.

Is it? It's still a crime. If your friend steals $200 from your house are you going to laugh it off cause it wasn't 20,000? I wouldn't. It's the same crime to me.

 

[Lemonzest]

That is so weird how different you and myself see the subject. You laugh off cheating in Monopoly, and forgive micro stakes money, but $500 is where you draw the line. I personally think if you cheat even in Monopoly your character is flawed. You mindset isn't how can I win playing the best of my ability it's how do I win by cheating since it's not significant amount of money. Call me a liar but I don't and have never cheated a game of Monopoly. Even to the point of hurting my own self if I can't remember if I got my go money bc I was taking care of the other 5 people since I bank.

I am not saying cheating in Monopoly is acceptable. I am just saying the interpersonal dynamic is different with minor infractions vs. major infractions.

The person being accused has more leeway to try and laugh off a so called "small infraction". There really isn't any way for the guilty party to make excuses or try and diffuse the accusation of stealing large sums.

 

[bsdunbar1]

Re: video: I’d need set-ups for both tables, and cameras which wouldn’t be obvious in a really minimal decor where small stuff sticks out.

I feel the facts as they are solid, especially as the other watcher is an objective, no-nonsense guy who is close with the cheater and is a winning player in our game. He sang be accused of bias, or jealously.

Sounds like you have all the evidence you need, now it comes down to the hard part of dealing with that evidence.
As host it is your obligation, regardless of how many players leave.
The players who stay will respect you more for doing it.

 

[shorticus]

Is it? It's still a crime. If your friend steals $200 from your house are you going to laugh it off cause it wasn't 20,000? I wouldn't. It's the same crime to me.

but it's not cause you're charged differently.

 

[Darson]

Since this is a bunch of friends, just talk isn't going to help you solve this situation as it'll become a "he said she said" situation. Set up a camera, get his antics on tape. Then you an dis-invite him and show the others the video and no one will take his side.

 

[saleen121212]

but it's not cause you're charged differently.

In court yes. Still a shitty person. You guys must not hold your friends characters to very high standards lol. Lemonzest will apparently let you kick him in the nuts, but not to hard, steal from him, but not too much, and cheat him, but only for what he considers insignificant money.

 

[toynoob]

I am not saying cheating in Monopoly is acceptable. I am just saying the interpersonal dynamic is different with minor infractions vs. major infractions.

The person being accused has more leeway to try and laugh off a so called "small infraction". There really isn't any way for the guilty party to make excuses or try and diffuse the accusation of stealing large sums.

And I'm saying the interpersonal dynamic is not different one bit. The mere thought of even how should/could I cheat someone in anything is unacceptable to me. Even if it's in your head and you never even cheat. Like I said we see things differently.

 

[Lemonzest]

Is it? It's still a crime. If your friend steals $200 from your house are you going to laugh it off cause it wasn't 20,000? I wouldn't. It's the same crime to me.

That isn't what I said.

 

[shorticus]

In court yes. Still a shitty person. You guys must not hold your friends characters to very high standards lol. Lemonzest will apparently let you kick him in the nuts, but not to hard, steal from him, but not too much, and cheat him, but only for what he considers insignificant money.

It's absolutely a shitty person. 100% agree, but there are levels to this. Stealing $10 is different from stealing $100 is different from stealing $1000, and that number varies based on other variables. Yes, the person is an asshole, yes, he sucks. But the action in which I take varies based upon the circumstances.

 

[bsdunbar1]

It's absolutely a shitty person. 100% agree, but there are levels to this. Stealing $10 is different from stealing $100 is different from stealing $1000, and that number varies based on other variables. Yes, the person is an asshole, yes, he sucks. But the action in which I take varies based upon the circumstances.

Not me.
You steal ANYTHING while in my house you are not allowed back.
You are in my house with my family and around my personal belongings.
We aren't talking about the legal technical letter of the law - we are talking about my home game. Same as the OP's situation.

 

[detroitdad]

It's absolutely a shitty person. 100% agree, but there are levels to this. Stealing $10 is different from stealing $100 is different from stealing $1000, and that number varies based on other variables. Yes, the person is an asshole, yes, he sucks. But the action in which I take varies based upon the circumstances.

If someone at my game steals/cheats two dollars (intentional cheat/steal) then he is gone. You don't usually get caught your first time. Stealing is stealing is stealing.

 

[Lemonzest]

I completely agree with this statement. You do know who your talking to right? shouldn't be surprising.

 

[bsdunbar1]

You don't usually get caught your first time. Stealing is stealing is stealing.

FACT

 

[1A25R]

Get rid of the guy, and if friends leave with him, well let them go.
Your game will allays had a better reputation when you dealt with such kind of shit that if you try to find a win-win situation.
Other players should feel more comfortable because they are protected from cheaters.

 

[Moxie Mike]

It’s a lot easier to say in the abstract, at a distance.

Human nature is such that even when all the blame falls on one person, their good friends make excuses or feel sorry for them.

So while I agree that it’s a fireable offense, it would be a deriliction or my duty as host not to aim first before firing.

At well-run games I attend, I appreciate hosts who handle things in a thoughtful, clear and mature way. Here, the core group are all good friends so I cant pretend it isn’t going to have ripple effects.

Game integrity is either paramount, or it's not. There's no middle ground.

Take the appropriate action and let the chips fall where they may. You might lose players, you even might lose a friend or two. It's understandable that you're concerned by this, but this is about the integrity of your game and you're either running a clean game or you're not.

I said it already but it's worth repeating - hosting a poker game is not a democracy. It's your game and your integrity on the line. A person you and others consider to be a friend has been cheating in your game. You yourself have stated that you and others believe this to be true. You already know what needs to happen. You seem to be looking for ways to sugar-coat this but you don't need to justify the decision. It's your game and who's invited is purely at your discretion.

 

[shorticus]

Not me.
You steal ANYTHING while in my house you are not allowed back.
You are in my house with my family and around my personal belongings.
We aren't talking about the legal technical letter of the law - we are talking about my home game. Same as the OP's situation.

If someone at my game steals/cheats two dollars (intentional cheat/steal) then he is gone. You don't usually get caught your first time. Stealing is stealing is stealing.

I'm not disagreeing with that at all. If someone steals from me, they are damn sure not allowed back in my home. I do not or would not ever condone stealing. I'm saying my reaction to stealing varies based on situation/amount of what was taken. Example: You stole $20 bucks, "get the F out of my house and don't come back". You stole $1000 and it's more like, "before you leave, take this ass whippin with you".

I think we all agree that put in this context this guy needs to be banned from the game.

 

[Lemonzest]

In court yes. Still a shitty person. You guys must not hold your friends characters to very high standards lol. Lemonzest will apparently let you kick him in the nuts, but not to hard, steal from him, but not too much, and cheat him, but only for what he considers insignificant money.

I apologize for making a nuanced point. Never mind.

 

[Hornet]

Are we really having an argument over different levels of cheating? Cheating is cheating. It’s wrong, and I wouldn’t want to associate with (let alone be friends with) someone who cheats with large amounts of money, small amounts of money, or at a game involving no money.

I agree with the people that suggest taking a video. When I used to try cases in a prior life, it always amazed me how much more people are willing to believe things when they see it for themselves. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that people will necessarily believe you because you and your other observer are trustworthy. Some will believe, others will think you made a mistake, and some others may think there’s an ulterior motive for you kicking him out of the game. A video will solve a lot of that.

 

[Frogzilla]

I recommend having more concrete accusations and being more specific in communicating them. What you’ve said in this thread has been vague, poorly substantiated, and inconsistent.

No one wants a cheater at their poker game. Nobody. I don’t want to play with my best friend or brother or anyone who is cheating. So if it’s clear that he is cheating, i would expect everyone at some level will support the decision. But if there is doubt, you run the risk of someone thinking you are mistaken, exaggerating, on a witch-hunt, etc.

 

[JMC9389]

Sounds like a similar situation to firing a popular employee. This is how I would handle it:

Address the individual first by saying: "The decision has been made* to remove you from the invite list effective immediately. The reason for this decision is the fact that cheating tactics have been observed by multiple individuals on multiple occasions. I hope we can maintain our friendship."

After that, address the group either in writing or in person at your next game by saying: "The decision has been made* to permanently remove [guy] from the invite list. The reason for this is because he has been undeniably observed cheating during his deals by multiple individuals including myself. Game integrity is paramount, and continuing to have this individual in the game represents an unacceptable risk.

As such, some new dealing procedures will be implemented. [then explain the new rules]"

*When you use language like this, it removes any notion that this is not settled. It also removes the sentiment that this is somehow personal that could be perceived if you say something like 'we've decided', etc. You will get far less resistance from the group if you address it matter-of-factly that makes it clear that you're acting in the best interest of the group.

Another vote for this approach. If the friends of the cheat don't understand that OP is doing this to protect his game, then I wouldn't want them in my game, either.

To he honest, I'd say that a couple of the friends are in on it if they vehemently disagree with the decision and feel that strongly about the decision to no longer welcome them back.

 

[Thomacetti]

 

[timinater]

Just thinking about this a bit more. Unless I'm missing something, I think you need to be prepared to explain to your players why the concerns were raised "a couple months ago" but nothing has really been done about it until now. What about players that were taken advantage of in the time period while you were observing?

If the host of a 1/2 & 2/5 game I played in suspected cheating and allowed it to happen (to observe and confirm, or for whatever reason) for an ongoing period of time, I'd be upset. If you have inside info to avoid a player suspected of cheating that's an unfair advantage to you.

Food for thought.

 

[saleen121212]

I recommend having more concrete accusations and being more specific in communicating them. What you’ve said in this thread has been vague, poorly substantiated, and inconsistent.

No one wants a cheater at their poker game. Nobody. I don’t want to play with my best friend or brother or anyone who is cheating. So if it’s clear that he is cheating, i would expect everyone at some level will support the decision. But if there is doubt, you run the risk of someone thinking you are mistaken, exaggerating, on a witch-hunt, etc.

This was my main point also. If he is not cheating an accusation would be terrible. I had a neighbor that would always get drunk and accuse everyone of cheating (even the constantly losing regs who were there just to hang out), we don't play with him any more. Evidence seems the first step, then the politics should be a lot easier.

 

[shorticus]

Just thinking about this a bit more. Unless I'm missing something, I think you need to be prepared to explain to your players why the concerns were raised "a couple months ago" but nothing has really been done about it until now. What about players that were taken advantage of in the time period while you were observing?

If the host of a 1/2 & 2/5 game I played in suspected cheating and allowed it to happen (to observe and confirm, or for whatever reason) for an ongoing period of time, I'd be upset. If you have inside info to avoid a player suspected of cheating that's an unfair advantage to you.

Food for thought.

THIS!!!!

That's exactly why I'm saying you have no time for video! You do not have time to get all of that setup. You really should have addressed this "a couple months ago", but meanwhile, players have been losing money all this time because you couldn't figure out the right time to say something. No man, that's not right! I'm not sure how I'm responding after I get this information!

 

[Moxie Mike]

Just thinking about this a bit more. Unless I'm missing something, I think you need to be prepared to explain to your players why the concerns were raised "a couple months ago" but nothing has really been done about it until now. What about players that were taken advantage of in the time period while you were observing?

If the host of a 1/2 & 2/5 game I played in suspected cheating and allowed it to happen (to observe and confirm, or for whatever reason) for an ongoing period of time, I'd be upset. If you have inside info to avoid a player suspected of cheating that's an unfair advantage to you.

Food for thought.

I respectfully disagree. Here's why:

I host games often. If someone came to me and said [player x] was cheating, I wouldn't immediately take action without verifying the accusation personally. This unfortunately takes time and diligence.

The fact that a concern was raised 'a couple months ago' and has subsequently been corroborated by OP personally adds credibility to his decision to ban the cheater.

 

[Taghkanic]

I sympathize with your your frustration. I like what others have said - have a new rule on shuffling and cutting and also video recording for hard evidence. But enforcing that rule, I believe will take you in the right direction. You can also say, it would be for the integrity for the game and transparency for any new members for the future.

Thanks. Note that we already have rules for shuffling behind and always cutting.

And, when we started watching in earnest, I reiterated these rules to the group (without calling anyone specific out) a couple of months ago. Problem is that many players are either too trusting, or lazy, or inattentive, or just can’t imagine that it is something to worry about among friends.

The nature of the cheating is such that it is less easy to explain than something simple like ratholing or stacking a deck with AA vs KK. The shuffling style seems casual, and almost no one pays attention to the guy shuffling as the previous hand plays out and the chips get pushed to the winner.

The advantage gained is also less blatant than cold-decking, or counterfeit chips, or having a card up your sleeve, or some other form of cheating you’d see in the movies. His method provides a significant edge for a smart player. While I can think of a few fish in the game who would gain almost nothing from knowing the bottom-most cards preflop.

 

[Kidsthesedays]

I think stakes matter but I can understand why some people would say that they don't. Because those cash and tourney stakes are significant to most middle class people I think a ban is in order.

At small stakes there is just more space to say "ah you caught me but I was just fucking around..." It is like cheating at monopoly. The higher the stakes the less space there is to say "haha I was just messing around".

Is it a friendly game or a game where people are taking the money serious? IMO cheating in a game "for fun" is different than cheating "for money". It is kind of splitting hairs but it matters to me.

Nah