Cash Game Courtesy of betting “pot” vs specific amount in PL? (1 Viewer)

Eloe2000

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We play a weekly PLO/NLHE dealer’s choice cash game and several typically level headed players have grown increasingly frustrated with another player for betting “pot” instead of counting out the pot themselves and making a specific bet (edit: in PLO). They claim it slows down the game too much and it is lazy. Generally it’s a .25/.25 game with $20-50 of various chips by the turn. I have been a bit surprised by the frustration. What is common courtesy here?
 
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Isn’t it just as slow to count the pot THEN bet as opposed to bet and then count the pot.

It would save time if you bet pot and the other player folds with no need to count the pot.
Not if the action is on the other players and you count the pot in your head before it's your turn. It is super lazy to call pot. And yes it does slow the game down.
 
I feel like it could also be a player’s choice if they feel it shows weakness or strength depending on the perception of the “pot” size.
 
If I'm playing in a pot limit game I'd want be able to bet the pot without getting dirty looks. Does't hurt to keep track of it in your head though..... so maybe you can say "pot....I believe it's $11.75"
 
You can’t bet (nor count down) pot in NLHE...if that is going on then that’s a legitimate gripe.

In PLO, Pot is a bet and part of the game. “REPOT MOTHERFUCKER” is a blast. Is there someone in the middle of the table that can calc pot quickly? Or can you keep it in your head every hand so any time someone says pot you say “$31 is the bet” or whatever it is? It shouldn’t slow your game down.
 
If the pot is kept organized the pot count is quick and easy
Obssessive-compulsive-anal-"Nazi" pot organizer here:D
Ideally, a dedicated (non-playing) dealer could/should announce the pot at every betting round, even in NLHE, IMHO.
 
Betting "pot" is different than counting the pot and then betting since there could be a mistake on the latter, but never on the former. Counting the pot before betting or after betting should take the exact same amount of time.

Now, having said that, a huge pet peeve of mine is people who bet "pot" and then stare at a distance hoping some other players will count the pot for them. One (the bettor) should, at a minimum, make an effort to count the pot on his/her own after announcing the pot bet. Showing that effort certainly makes other players more willing to help out, speeding up the process.
 
Obssessive-compulsive-anal-"Nazi" pot organizer here:D
Ideally, a dedicated (non-playing) dealer could/should announce the pot at every betting round, even in NLHE, IMHO.
Don’t do it in NLHE. It’s on the players and it’s part of the game that you have to pay attention to know what’s really in there
 
Someone keeping the pot organized would be key. Especially if there’s a bunch of random quarters. I don’t give all of my players credit for being able to do the math and count how many of what bets went in.
 
Don’t do it in NLHE. It’s on the players and it’s part of the game that you have to pay attention to know what’s really in there

I agree. A couple of guys in my group disagree with this. I can't remember who. I've made pot being illegal at my house during no limit games. I get flak for it.
 
If the pot is kept organized the pot count is quick and easy

True, but it is pretty splashy by the turn with $20-$50 of .25/1/5's. I doubt we will be able to get most in this group to do that. It would be ideal I know.
 
This.
Now, having said that, a huge pet peeve of mine is people who bet "pot" and then stare at a distance hoping some other players will count the pot for them. One (the bettor) should, at a minimum, make an effort to count the pot on his/her own after announcing the pot bet. Showing that effort certainly makes other players more willing to help out, speeding up the process.
I don’t think you need to know the “pot” before you bet. Can make mistakes. Bet pot and count.
 
I don't play PL games myself, so I can't speak to this personally, but I imagine that the pot in a PL game should be stacked rather than spread, if possible. This would make counting it much easier.

Also, is anyone betting "Pot motherfucker" without at least having the slightest clue what's in it? I guess some might. If I were to ever bet the pot in a PL game, I'd immediately follow that up with a number, i.e. "I bet the pot. Looks like it's $17," and then someone (ideally a dealer or at least someone who's not involved in the hand) can count it out. Yes, it's not a requirement to know the amount in the pot before betting, but I'd get pretty tired of someone simply saying "Pot" and then waiting for others to figure out how much the bet is.
 
Nothing wrong at all with announcing pot. The dealer should be paying attention and know what the pot is anyway, but the bettor should have an idea too, not as a courtesy but because to announce pot without knowing what the pot is (and relative stack sizes) is probably a fairly big leak.
 
I don't play PL games myself, so I can't speak to this personally, but I imagine that the pot in a PL game should be stacked rather than spread, if possible. This would make counting it much easier.

Also, is anyone betting "Pot motherfucker" without at least having the slightest clue what's in it? I guess some might. If I were to ever bet the pot in a PL game, I'd immediately follow that up with a number, i.e. "I bet the pot. Looks like it's $17," and then someone (ideally a dealer or at least someone who's not involved in the hand) can count it out. Yes, it's not a requirement to know the amount in the pot before betting, but I'd get pretty tired of someone simply saying "Pot" and then waiting for others to figure out how much the bet is.

No one in our game ever stacks the pot, and it would probably be difficult to get that to happen. Generally everyone ensures it is spread enough to get a solid estimate or even a good count without touching it though.

It isn't an act of overt aggression. I think when its a .25/.25 game with approx $30 in the pot and they bet "pot" the bettor figures the other players have a sense of the amount and if they want a count the bettor will then count it or once the other player(s) call the bettor will then count it. I think the bettor feels they are actually saving time.
 
No one in our game ever stacks the pot, and it would probably be difficult to get that to happen. Generally everyone ensures it is spread enough to get a solid estimate or even a good count without touching it though.

It isn't an act of overt aggression. I think when its a .25/.25 game with approx $30 in the pot and they bet "pot" the bettor figures the other players have a sense of the amount and if they want a count the bettor will then count it or once the other player(s) call the bettor will then count it. I think the bettor feels they are actually saving time.

well they can bet pot, and start to count it while the other player is making their decision. If they fold, then the bettor can stop, but if they decide to call it will save some time. Still, it's generally a good idea to count the pot as you're going so it doesn't take that much time.
 
i always take the “dealer” seat and stack/track the pot in plo at my mixed games. pot is rounded up to nearest dollar. this seems to help the flow. i usually know the pot size in my head, just an old habit. courtesy would be for the player to track it themselves...but, scrub donkeys and such
“60!”
“you can’t do that, Scotty. the pot is $10”
“oh...well..pot!” (stares off into space)
 
*Provided you are not at a casino where a rake is being paid for dealer services*
It is clearly rude to assume that someone else should be servicing you by counting the pot for you. It is also rude to not know approximately what is in the pot when you make a pot wager. Your players have the right to be a bit annoyed at the offending lazy player who isn't at least approximating the pot bet size verbally. The onus is always on the betting player to know and/or determine the pot size. The table should check/confirm the amount is correct. Rounding the pot to the nearest dollar is a must. That said, at many home games you will likely have a player or playing-dealer that generally knows what's in the pot at all times. When I'm dealing/playing, I generally know the count and will tell players when they bet the pot. That said, a polite "thank you", fetching a drink, or tossing a chip to show appreciation if always a nice gesture. I've been at a meetup or two where some players are fairly rude and treat me like they would treat a paid dealer (i.e., not paying attention, not pushing bets into the pot when prompted, not making efforts to speed the game). I generally stop providing a count, stop organizing/pre-splitting the pot, stop dealing, and fairly quickly change tables. Problem solved....
 
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I think it's courtesy that someone not in the hand should be keeping a reasonable eye on what the pot is. When potting as a raise, always remember the quick formula of 2x active bet + current pot is total amount the raise will be.
 
If you want to bet the pot you gotta know what's in there. In our game you are given the benefit of the doubt, and if someone disagrees we'll count it up but otherwise we carry on.
 
Provided you are not at a casino where a rake is being paid for such services, it is clearly rude to assume that someone else should be servicing you by counting the pot for you. Your players have the right to be a bit annoyed at the offending lazy player. The onus is always on the betting player to know and/or determine the pot size. The table should check/confirm the amount is correct. Rounding the pot to the nearest dollar is a must. That said, at many home games you will likely have a player or playing-dealer that generally knows what's in the pot at all times. When I'm dealing/playing, I generally know the count and will tell players when they bet the pot. That said, a polite "thank you", fetching a drink, or tossing a chip to show appreciation if always a nice gesture. I've been at a meetup or two where some players are fairly rude and treat me like they would treat a paid dealer (i.e., not paying attention, not pushing bets into the pot when prompted, not making efforts to speed the game). I generally stop providing a count, stop organizing/pre-splitting the pot, stop dealing, and fairly quickly change tables. Problem solved....

The player in question isn't necessarily insisting that other players be responsible to count the pot. He will count it if asked or if called. I believe he feels he is actually saving time by not counting unless someone feels they may want to call, in which case the bettor will count.
 
I remember a thread on here a while ago saying that "Pot" is not a bet as a bet has to be a value. Is there a rule about that in general in any of the rulebooks?

I mean otherwise I could announce that I bet x = 75 - sqrt(date) * 4, but I don't think that would be valid until I say a number or move chips past the betting line.
 
True, but it is pretty splashy by the turn with $20-$50 of .25/1/5's. I doubt we will be able to get most in this group to do that. It would be ideal I know.

Players should be keeping their betting/raising in front of them until the betting is over for that street. Then everything is raked, and organized into the pot.
 
The player in question isn't necessarily insisting that other players be responsible to count the pot. He will count it if asked or if called. I believe he feels he is actually saving time by not counting unless someone feels they may want to call, in which case the bettor will count.
He isn't helping, he's being lazy and the other players' time is being wasted while he does nothing until they decide on their action. I would ask him what's the pot every single time he makes a pot bet, until his behavior changes.
 
Players should be keeping their betting/raising in front of them until the betting is over for that street. Then everything is raked, and organized into the pot.

Sure. The betting is organized but once it gets to the pot it gets splashy. I am saying it would be difficult to get this group to organize the pot neatly by denomination etc.
 
He isn't helping, he's being lazy and the other players' time is being wasted while he does nothing until they decide on their action. I would ask him what's the pot every single time he makes a pot bet, until his behavior changes.
I get it, but is the solution to slow the game down even more? Maybe he shapes up, but I've always seen this as an occupational hazard of PL games.
 

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