Cash Game Misdeal? (1 Viewer)

[Mojo1312]

^^ That is the way I have seen it handled. I certainly won't be bringing the contents of this subject up for conversation at the next poker game.

 

[Gobbs]

Quite simply, there needs to be one, consistent way to handle the situation, regardless of whether or not it’s a serious game or a friendly game. There can’t be any question of how it will be handled because to do so would open up the opportunity for angle-shooting.

Therefore, in the absence of written home rules that state otherwise, it’s a misdeal every time. That is how it is normally handled and that is what RRoP states. (I’m too lazy to look at TDA rules, but I know it doesn’t say to simply muck the extra hand.)

I would not suggest changing the misdeal rules for a home game. To do so could open up some very uncomfortable situations. In fact, for a friendly game, I would suggest sticking to the misdeal rules very closely. The more clear the rules and the more consistently they are enforced, the less controversy and more friendly the game can be.

For one of the home game series in which I play, the rules are very specific and very consistently enforced. I can only think of one controversy in 15 years and it was very amicable because all parties had faith the rules would handle the situation effectively (and they did) and were willing to let it play out appropriately. That has kept the game mostly friendly for a long time.

 

[Josh Kifer]

Misdeal and everyone auto folds

 

[Taghkanic]

I'd disagree, unless this was a stated rule, as some shithead who just lost a bunch of money on a hand now goes irate as the hand "should" have been dead.

This is a good and interesting point which applies to other situations... Ignoring “trivial” rules for the sake of convenience—hey, the cards are still random, no big deal—makes a lot of sense... until someone happens to get coolered in one of those hands, and goes on tilt/gets huffy.

 

[Just1Better]

Two or more boxed cards (improperly faced cards) are found

Please excuse my ignorance, but what are boxed/improperly faced cards?

 

[CraigT78]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what are boxed/improperly faced cards?

Cards that are face up in the deck.

 

[Just1Better]

Thanks, that's what I thought but I haven't heard the term Boxed Cards. Any idea where that term comes from?

 

[CraigT78]

Thanks, that's what I thought but I haven't heard the term Boxed Cards. Any idea where that term comes from?

I do not, but maybe some of our dealer members would know. Or @BGinGA as he knows almost everything

 

[BGinGA]

Boxed card refers to the non-playable cards that should remain in the the box -- the jokers, warranty cards, hand ranking card, etc. All are treated as a meaningless scrap of paper if discovered in play.

Since face-up cards found in the deck stub are treated the same way, they are also referred to as boxed cards.

 

[WedgeRock]

Boxed card refers to the non-playable cards that should remain in the the box -- the jokers, warranty cards, hand ranking card, etc. All are treated as a meaningless scrap of paper if discovered in play.

Since face-up cards found in the deck stub are treated the same way, they are also referred to as boxed cards.

It almost sounds like he made that up, but I'd be willing to bet the explanation is correct.

Reminds me of a story, I know I've told it before. At an old job, I used to play at a paper-cards-and-dice-chips-on-a-dining-room-table game because it was so soft. Usually 6-8 handed and a $20 buyin. It wasn't paying my mortgage, but it was good company and easy money.

They always deferred to me on rules.

I showed up late one time... They are 30 minutes into the game... I sit down for a few hands before the deal gets to me. I shuffle the stub and it feels light... I check the tuck box and along with the jokers, the seat draw cards (A-7) are in the box too. They had been playing with 45 cards.

(@mike32: that deck is known as a full Jackson.)

 

[mike32]

It almost sounds like he made that up, but I'd be willing to bet the explanation is correct.

Reminds me of a story, I know I've told it before. At an old job, I used to play at a paper-cards-and-dice-chips-on-a-dining-room-table game because it was so soft. Usually 6-8 handed and a $20 buyin. It wasn't paying my mortgage, but it was good company and easy money.

They always deferred to me on rules.

I showed up late one time... They are 30 minutes into the game... I sit down for a few hands before the deal gets to me. I shuffle the stub and it feels light... I check the tuck box and along with the jokers, the seat draw cards (A-7) are in the box too. They had been playing with 45 cards.

(@mike32: that deck is known as a full Jackson.)

I just explained the "Jackson" 45 minutes to Ben last night lol. I played most of the night with some guys before and late in the game I got up to get a beer or something and saw the 4 of spades lying on the floor next to where the host pulled the cards out of the box. We all just figured we had the same odds so oh well.

 

[CraigT78]

Not to derail, but I'm going to anyway. I had one situation come up where me and another player were heads up preflop and got all in. Crazy circus action. Anyway, the dealer dealt out the flop, turn and river on both boards before the dipshit realized he dealt the board from the wrong deck. He used the blue cards, while we were holding red cards. What happens now? Do you wipe the blue cards and re-deal the board with red? Or is it dead and split the pot?

 

[WedgeRock]

First, don't let @detroitdad deal in your home games.

Assuming no action, correct the mistake.

I won a league Championship last year after the same thing. AIPF. I have 99 v 33. Trey on the flop, but I notice it's the same suit as one of villain's pocket cards. Mistake gets corrected, correct flop brings a 9, I win. GG, me.

 

[JustinInMN]

Do you wipe the blue cards and re-deal the board with red?

I would do exactly this. Especially because it was all in pre-flop there is zero harm in doing this. Even if the stub got juggled, you could just reshuffle as if it were a premature burn and turn.

Or is it dead and split the pot?

This is a very bad idea in a spot that can be so easily corrected. However, if there had to be action on those cards, I would rule fouled deck and everyone gets a refund.

 

[CraigT78]

I would do exactly this.

This is what we did, but there was some grief as I was ahead pre, and ended up winning on both deals of the boards. Just wanted to see if it was handled the way most would have. The determination was that there was no action left, so the hand could be easily reconstructed before there was any information to affect action. Cool.

 

[JustinInMN]

Now back to the original question I do think @Irish has the right idea by the book, if there hasn't been significant action it's a misdeal.

But I would point out, the two points at the start of the section are paramount.

1. Once action begins, a misdeal cannot be called. The deal will be played, and no money will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled. In button games, action is considered to occur when two players after the blinds have acted on their hands. In stud games, action is considered to occur when two players after the forced bet have acted on their hands.

2. The following circumstances cause a misdeal, provided attention is called to the error before two players have acted on their hands.

Meaning if there had been significant action, the only ruling would be to kill the erroneous hand.

Furthermore, in the original casino version of RROP, this is the first point under decision-making

Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling

http://www.pokercoach.us/RobsPkrRules11.mht

Meaning I think a ruling of "just kill the hand" could be order if the player requesting a misdeal only does so after looking at his hand, because it is fairer to protect the game from this angle rather than ruling according to the specific rule.

Usually in my games, in the interest of speed, we prefer the kill the hand method unless it's been noticed pretty early in the deal.

 

[Irish]

Not to derail, but I'm going to anyway. I had one situation come up where me and another player were heads up preflop and got all in. Crazy circus action. Anyway, the dealer dealt out the flop, turn and river on both boards before the dipshit realized he dealt the board from the wrong deck. He used the blue cards, while we were holding red cards. What happens now? Do you wipe the blue cards and re-deal the board with red? Or is it dead and split the pot?

I don't believe there's a specific rules that covers this, but since you both were all-in pre-flop and there was no subsequent action, you wipe the blue cards and re-deal the board with the correct deck. You're essentially treating the blue cards like random pieces of paper, they have no meaning.

 

[JustinInMN]

So since "Whatever @JustinInMN says was not a poll option" I voted "whether it's a misdeal depends on some other factor" because the action was not specific, and I think that's the main factor, and whether or not the player looked at is hand could be considered as well, but it sounds like there isn't a ton of concern about this player shooting an angle.

Player A declares "Misdeal!" and moves to pitch his cards in the middle. I say somewhat loudly and colorfully that it's not a misdeal. It's just an errant hand that will be auto-folded.

Player A insists that it's a misdeal because the additional hand changes the sequence of cards that would have been dealt. I point out that this isn't the rule when, say, someone goes to the bathroom and asks to be dealt out, but is dealt in anyway. We just muck him. Player A says that it's different because the player has chips in that situation.

I would suggest at this point remind all players not to release their hands until the ruling of a misdeal is final. You are correct there are factors player A is not considering. I think that's the best way to prevent what you describe next.

Before I can get things under control, Player A pitches his cards into the middle in his usual misdeal fashion (he has a way he does it that's different from a normal fold), and half the table follows suit

So ruling a misdeal, not the worst thing here, but I think some suggestion that getting players in the habit of holding their cards until the ruling is final is in the interest of this game.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Boxed card refers to the non-playable cards that should remain in the the box -- the jokers, warranty cards, hand ranking card, etc. All are treated as a meaningless scrap of paper if discovered in play.

Since face-up cards found in the deck stub are treated the same way, they are also referred to as boxed cards.

The man, the myth, the legend.

Is there anything you do not know about poker?

 

[BGinGA]

Yeah, lots. Just ask my bankroll.

 

[Jimulacrum]

So ruling a misdeal, not the worst thing here, but I think some suggestion that getting players in the habit of holding their cards until the ruling is final is in the interest of this game.

I agree. That's kinda the maddening thing about it. Sure, Player A, if you don't want to play this hand for superstitious reasons, then by all means fold. But inducing half or more of the table to also muck puts me (or the host or whoever) in a lousy spot, because they're acting on the supposition that it's really a misdeal.

However, if the host makes it a clearly stated rule that there's no misdeal until the host (who is there 99% of the time, BTW) says so, then folks should quickly catch on. Y'all can thoughtlessly muck your hands when someone yells "Misdeal!" all you want, but it'll just be a normal fold, and the rest of us will keep playing.

I don't even especially care how the individual cases turn out. If a hand dealt to an empty seat is a misdeal, it's fine, as long as it gets handled in a more uniform way than the guy who's the most assertive forcing the decision.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Not to derail, but I'm going to anyway. I had one situation come up where me and another player were heads up preflop and got all in. Crazy circus action. Anyway, the dealer dealt out the flop, turn and river on both boards before the dipshit realized he dealt the board from the wrong deck. He used the blue cards, while we were holding red cards. What happens now? Do you wipe the blue cards and re-deal the board with red? Or is it dead and split the pot?

Wipe the errant board and deal from the red deck. If there's no action after the errant cards are dealt out, there's no potential harm to address. It's no different than if two players had separately decided to play Gin Rummy with the blue deck in the middle of the hand.

 

[WedgeRock]

IBL when @Gobbs and @BGinGA go insane with the use of the term "muck" interchangeably with "fold" and "discard."

 

[DoubleEagle]

Not to derail, but I'm going to anyway. I had one situation come up where me and another player were heads up preflop and got all in. Crazy circus action. Anyway, the dealer dealt out the flop, turn and river on both boards before the dipshit realized he dealt the board from the wrong deck. He used the blue cards, while we were holding red cards. What happens now? Do you wipe the blue cards and re-deal the board with red? Or is it dead and split the pot?

This has happened in our game several times. It is easy to correct by re-dealing the board cards from the correct deck.

 

[BGinGA]

This has happened in our game several times. It is easy to correct by re-dealing the board cards from the correct deck.

Unless significant action has ocurred before it's noticed. Then not so easy...

 

[JustinInMN]

Unless significant action has ocurred before it's noticed. Then not so easy...

Agreed, then I think you almost have to rule foul deck. (Which I have never, ever had to do or even seen in 18ish years of playing/hosting.) If there's been action, that's extra information that potentially harms both players when redealing from the correct deck changes the action. If one dealt form the wrong deck and action was made, one is effectively dealing from a deck with obviously duplicated cards so I think the definition fits. Such an unfortunate situation though, but I can't think of a better ruling.

Never an issue in the casino of course where one deck is always in the well. Probably worthwhile to stress in dealing procedure to make sure the wrong deck is never near the active dealer after shuffling. I always put the cut card on top of the deck after shuffling to act as a "stop sign."

 

[CraigT78]

Unless significant action has ocurred before it's noticed. Then not so easy...

I'd say impossible, really. If this occurred in my game, with action open after wrong cards are dealt, I'd probably have to rule a dead game and return all bets. Not sure how else to do it.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I'd say impossible, really. If this occurred in my game, with action open after wrong cards are dealt, I'd probably have to rule a dead game and return all bets. Not sure how else to do it.

Yeah, I feel the same. Seen it happen maybe once ever, and there was very significant action—bet, fold, raise, something like that—and I think we ruled it a fouled hand and rolled back all action. There was just too much action on the false board, and cards were irretrievably in the muck. There was no truly fair way to proceed.

 

[JustinInMN]

Yeah, Roberts rules for home games seems to support this assumption as well.

Under Section 3 - General Poker Rules - irregularities

3. If a card with a different color back appears during a hand, all action is void and all chips in the pot are returned to the respective bettors. If a card with a different color back is discovered in the stub, all action stands.

4. If two cards of the same rank and suit are found, all action is void, and all chips in the pot are returned to the players who wagered them (subject to next rule).

5. A player who knows the deck is defective has an obligation to point this out. If such a player instead tries to win a pot by taking aggressive action (trying for a freeroll), the player may lose the right to a refund, and the chips may be required to stay in the pot for the next deal.

http://www.pokercoach.us/RobsPkrRulesHome.htm

So a strict interpretation of the rules in even @CraigT78 's situation would suggest the money be returned once a card from the wrong deck "appears."

However, since both players are all in and no one is harmed by making action, I think this is another situation covered by the leeway in the original Robert's to make a ruling to put fairness before a strict interpretation of the rules.

 

[Irish]

I'd say impossible, really. If this occurred in my game, with action open after wrong cards are dealt, I'd probably have to rule a dead game and return all bets. Not sure how else to do it.

Yeah, I feel the same. Seen it happen maybe once ever, and there was very significant action—bet, fold, raise, something like that—and I think we ruled it a fouled hand and rolled back all action. There was just too much action on the false board, and cards were irretrievably in the muck. There was no truly fair way to proceed.

x2, I'd file this one under:

Irregularities:
3. If a card with a different color back appears during a hand, all action is void and all chips in the pot are returned to the respective bettors. If a card with a different color back is discovered in the stub, all action stands.