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Tourney Should all WSOP no-limit hold'em events use the Big Blind Ante format like was done at the recently completed WSOP Europe? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter DoubleEagle
- Start date
derekdd23
Flush
All tournaments with Antes, not just WSOP
Kain8
Flush
You want tournaments done faster and inspire more action? Get those antes in!!!
orsonberger
3 of a Kind
In the last Barcelona´s EPT of PS this new rule was used in some tourneys is more easy to dealers work and get more action in blinds battles.
I know there was discussion about this issue a couple of times before, Dave. Can't remember your rationale for not liking it. Do you mind sharing it again?
andy699669
3 of a Kind
Yes, dammit!
The table ante rule creates a new possibility in tournament poker where a player is forced to risk losing 100% of their stack while simultaneously only capable of winning the pot with absolutely zero profit or gain, regardless of the number of players in the hand. It is anti-poker in this regard, and yet it is completely unneccesary and avoidable.
I'm not a fan of most tournament antes on principle (an unneccesary time/energy complication for games that already use forced blind bets added to the pot to generate action), but if used, antes should be implemented as originally intended (forcing all players to put a fixed extra amount of dead money into every pot).
Posting a single table ante (regardless from which player position) is a poorly-designed attempt to correct an unrelated problem (inattentive players and poorly-trained dealers) while creating new and more serious inequity issues, and doesn't address the actual root problem at all. The minimal time savings is not worth the inequities caused by the rule.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
It creates possible, albeit unlikely, problems when the single blind cannot cover both the ante and the blind.
- Either, the BB is paid, and the player doesn't pay an ante or...
- The player posts the ante, and cannot win anything (except his own money) on the hand.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
...and Dave got there first 
However, I agree... Antes, while a part of the game, are totally unnecessary.
However, I agree... Antes, while a part of the game, are totally unnecessary.
Antes are everything in tournament poker, and the big blind ante is here to stay.
I do agree that the prospect of a player only being able to win back what they put in is anti-poker. I wish the rule was that the blind goes in first.
I do agree that the prospect of a player only being able to win back what they put in is anti-poker. I wish the rule was that the blind goes in first.
Not if those opposed vote with their tournament dollars.
The fact that it has 4:1 player support in some impromptu polls is trumped by the fact that it would be a very ill-advised business decision for tournament venues and organizers to slash their attendance (and entry fee income) by 20% by implementing a totally unnecessary rule.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
When playing in a casino, I simply prefer to play in tournaments that resemble my home game. So I look for (in this order)...
- Tournament duration of 6 hours (+/- 2 hours)
- No Antes
- Nice chips
- Friendly/social players (this would be higher, if it were possible to identify friendly/social players before you commit to a particular casino)
andy699669
3 of a Kind
Home Game: Ante OFF
Casino Tournaments: Ante ON
Casino Tournaments: Ante ON
Me either, so long as the implemented antes are fair and reasonable. However, the current status of table ante rules are not, and venues that use them will not get my business.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
Why is it good in a casino but not in a home game?
SeanGecko
4 of a Kind
I like antes in cash games. Tournaments not at all. And making the big blind post again seems like a game I don’t want to play in ever.
I missed this discussion here yesterday but saw the WSOP poll on Twitter. I had not heard before that all NLH events at WSOP Europe this year had used the BBA, but that and the poll question seem to confirm the point that BBA is emerging as standard practice in large live tournaments. Declining to play in tourneys with BBA is soon going to mean bypassing a lot of tourneys. (Hell, Wynn is using BBA in Seniors tournaments now.) And I have to be honest, I am always surprised at how worked up people get over this. I've played with BBA and traditional antes in both home tournaments and at WSOP Deepstacks last year. Other than providing the slight relief when short-stacked of getting nearly an orbit of free hands to find a hand worth shoving, I don't perceive play to be any different overall. But the game runs more efficiently and the dealers love it. I can certainly understand having a personal preference for traditional antes (or no antes), but I don't know how this would be a deal-breaker either way.
I haven't located on the WSOPE structure sheets any note explaining which rule they used for players all in for less than 2 BBs, but it's worth noting that in BBA events at the 2018 WSOP in Vegas the BB was paid first. In that variant of the rule the all-in player does stand to win net chips. However, your concern does apply to the variant of the rule endorsed by WPT's Matt Savage, as discussed in at least one other thread.
Jordan Downs
3 of a Kind
I think the BB ante is great. Speeds up the game significantly. If your tournament life was put all in on a BB ante we’ll its obvious that you weren’t have a successful tournament to begin with. I think it’s a great idea for large field events such as the WSOP where there are many new Rec players in the field.
For my games (when I had them), it was part alcohol, part people insisting on splashing the pot and creating arguments about who'd anted and who hadn't. If you've had drunks wasting an entire level arguing about who didn't throw out a T25 ante & ignoring the dealer, you'd definitely be on board with no antes in a home environment.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
FWIW, the Fall Poker Classic at Canterbury (my regular room) put the BBA in select events this year. It's still a new concept here, but it was popular enough that the higher rollers I know were lamenting the $1100 main event was not included among the BBA events. I am guessing all events will be BBA next year.
Personally I played two smaller events during the series, one BBA, one not. (I am the reigning 10th place champion of Crazy Pineapple.) I think BBA is clearly faster and I see why it's popular. My informal questioning of opponents during the runs garnered responses from very positive to indifference at worst.
I'm sorry people disagree, but I don't think the casinos are going to suffer a loss of turnout for the change. Believe whatever you want, but I think the horse has left the barn on this one, and I think the popularity with the players is more genuine than the detractors say.
Personally I played two smaller events during the series, one BBA, one not. (I am the reigning 10th place champion of Crazy Pineapple.) I think BBA is clearly faster and I see why it's popular. My informal questioning of opponents during the runs garnered responses from very positive to indifference at worst.
I'm sorry people disagree, but I don't think the casinos are going to suffer a loss of turnout for the change. Believe whatever you want, but I think the horse has left the barn on this one, and I think the popularity with the players is more genuine than the detractors say.
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
Meh, I haven't really become much of a fan of the bb ante format. Hell, I'd prefer a no ante format but the fact is that venues want tournaments over sooner rather than later, since they collect all their entry profits upfront.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
Drunks wasting an entire level, arguing about who didn't throw out a T25 ante & ignoring the dealer... Yep sounds like low-stakes casino play.
Antes are the same, home or casino. Aggressive players like them, players that prefer to pick their spots dont. It doesn't "improve" the game though. It helps it to end sooner. If your tournament goal is for it to end sooner then antes are great - and that is why the majority of casinos use them. The BBA ends the who did/didn't post arguments, so it is catching on.
As I've said in other threads, I have an open view on the BBA. I haven't played it yet, but I suspect it is better than regular antes despite the problems it has the potential to generate. However, no ante is still better in my opinion. One extra Big Blind does not incentivise me to open my range.
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I am understanding now that the opposition to the big blind ante here has more to do with a general dislike of antes of any kind, which is a different topic that is probably best avoided.
As for the specific topic here - the big blind ante is now a fixture and is never going away, it's now standard in almost every major series and the WSOP no doubt will jump on the bandwagon shortly, especially if they pay attention to their own informal poll which is the equivalent of getting aces in against pocket kings - 80/20 in favor. I would not be shocked if the Main is big blind ante in 2019.
Do I personally like the big blind ante? Yes, only because it makes my time at the table infinitely more pleasant - faster, better flow, less arguing, and less frustration are all products of the big blind (or button) ante system. Is it perfect? No. But it's a heck of a lot better than "Antes guys, I need your antes..." from the dealer every single hand.
And I really do think the blind should go in first before the ante, that way if a player is short they stand to win back more than only what they put in.
As for the specific topic here - the big blind ante is now a fixture and is never going away, it's now standard in almost every major series and the WSOP no doubt will jump on the bandwagon shortly, especially if they pay attention to their own informal poll which is the equivalent of getting aces in against pocket kings - 80/20 in favor. I would not be shocked if the Main is big blind ante in 2019.
Do I personally like the big blind ante? Yes, only because it makes my time at the table infinitely more pleasant - faster, better flow, less arguing, and less frustration are all products of the big blind (or button) ante system. Is it perfect? No. But it's a heck of a lot better than "Antes guys, I need your antes..." from the dealer every single hand.
And I really do think the blind should go in first before the ante, that way if a player is short they stand to win back more than only what they put in.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
So everybody pays an ante... except you, small stack. You get this orbit for free.
Although probably not a true story, legend has it that back in the 1960s, the US Space Program had an issue that was most difficult to solve. They needed a pen that could write in zero gravity so the astronauts could write things down. NASA spent millions of dollars to commission a zero-gravity pen. After much effort, they finally came up with a pen that could write in space.
The Russians didn’t have the same problem because they didn’t use pens. They just used pencils.
The BBA is the poker equivalent of the zero gravity pen. It’s a solution to a problem that shouldn’t even exist. Just get rid of the antes.
The Russians didn’t have the same problem because they didn’t use pens. They just used pencils.
The BBA is the poker equivalent of the zero gravity pen. It’s a solution to a problem that shouldn’t even exist. Just get rid of the antes.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
Threadjack:
Not a true story, but glad you recognised it as unlikely.
Originally, NASA astronauts, like the Soviet cosmonauts, used pencils, according to NASA historians. In fact, NASA ordered 34 mechanical pencils from Houston's Tycam Engineering Manufacturing, Inc., in 1965. They paid $4,382.50 or $128.89 per pencil. When these prices became public, there was an outcry and NASA scrambled to find something cheaper for the astronauts to use.
Pencils may not have been the best choice anyway. The tips flaked and broke off, drifting in microgravity where they could potentially harm an astronaut or equipment. And pencils are flammable--a quality NASA wanted to avoid in onboard objects after the Apollo 1 fire.
Paul C. Fisher and his company, the Fisher Pen Company, reportedly invested $1 million to create what is now commonly known as the space pen. None of this investment money came from NASA's coffers--the agency only became involved after the pen was dreamed into existence. In 1965 Fisher patented a pen that could write upside-down, in frigid or roasting conditions (down to minus 50 degrees Fahrenheit or up to 400 degrees F), and even underwater or in other liquids. If too hot, though, the ink turned green instead of its normal blue.
Fisher's pens are still used by NASA and other space agencies today. It is the writing implement used on the International Space Station.
/Threadjack
This is just semantics. A short stacked player is obligated to put in all of their money, whether you call it an ante or a blind doesn't really matter – either way they are giving all they have.So everybody pays an ante... except you, small stack. You get this orbit for free.
Other players who put in an ante and a big blind and have chips behind are not putting their tournament life at risk. I don't think a micro stack is getting off easy at all or getting away with anything when all of their chips go in.
When these chips represent a blind then that player has a chance to win back more than what they put in.
If we insist on designating this amount as an ante, then we have given a short stack zero hope of ever climbing back. Chip and a chair does not apply.
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