Cash Game Stakes too low? (4 Viewers)

[Gojira777]

We played a .05/.10 cash game last night (our second cash game ever) and it escalated really quick. We had 20/30/40€ pots regularly and lots of rebuys. We had about 250€ on the table for 2500bb with 8 players.

Does this mean I can up the stakes to .25/.25?

The 5c chips were absolutely unnecessary and annoying to count and the workhorse chips were the 1s, not the quarters as I intended.

My chip set looks like this:
100 nickels
200 quarters
200 1s
100 5s
We had everything on the table except for the 5s and a few 1s. I think with the 5s we could handle a .25/.25.

Let me know what you think!

 

[TheRealStephen12]

Raise the buy-in to 20€. “Lots of rebuys” signals more than 4-5 total if your chip count was 2500BB, which would likely help solve at least part of your problem.

 

[Gojira777]

Sorry I didn‘t mention: Buyins were 10-20€, so 100-200bb. Most bought in for the max.

 

[dinosaur]

I think that sounds like a perfect night. Splashy with lots of chips in play where you can see a bunch of big stacks by the end of the night. In my experience, each game will escalate. So if you play .25/.25 - you will be allowing for even bigger pots than todays. (Obviously.)

So it depends on you and your players’ risk tolerance. To keep your game going, you don’t want the losers to lose bigger and bigger each game.

If everyone is comfortable risking $100 total for the night, bumping to .25/.25 will be no issue. If people only want to risk $20 for the night, it may be wiser to keep it at .05/.10.

Best of luck finding the balance.

 

[Gojira777]

That makes sense. Maybe we‘ll need to play a few more games to find a good balance for everyone.

I do like the idea of .25/.25 game because I don‘t have to use nickels. We play with CC Pharaos, which I really like, but eventually I want to use my mixed THC set when it is completed.

 

[Gojira777]

I just feel like bet sizes were not influenced by blinds at all and rather by the actual money. We played only tournaments before so my players aren‘t really used to cash games either. Overall mostly unexperienced poker players and big gamblers in my group.

 

[Gojira777]

It‘s not like anyone was complaining it was a really fun night! Just that people often casually opened for 1-2€ (10-20bb) and get 5 calls. One of the players (the only really experienced one) suggested me that I probably don‘t need the nickels.

 

[sleepyhead]

It‘s not like anyone was complaining it was a really fun night! Just that people often casually opened for 1-2€ (10-20bb) and get 5 calls. One of the players (the only really experienced one) suggested me that I probably don‘t need the nickels.

This is what forced me to up the blinds in my game. I host a game with my buddies every couple months. Started at $0.25/$0.50, $50-$100 buy in.

Guys started regularly open raising $4-$5 and getting several callers. I said I think it’s time to raise the blinds… we went to $0.50/$1 with $50-$200 buy in. The game plays better since the change.

 

[Labrat]

€250 on the table with 8 players is an average of around €30/player, so I'd say you're on the right track of going to .25/.25 with a max buy-in of €50.

Barrel of quarters, barrel of ones, and 5 fives for starting stacks. Simple to deal with. Others will say too many quarters, but whatever fits your table works.

That's what we play and it's a pretty comfortable game for our group at the game I host. We're pretty tight at the beginning but it loosens up towards the end of the night and we usually have 2-4 rebuys, sometimes more.


Depending how wild it gets, you may need more 5s, but I doubt it.

 

[SteveEH]

Just that people often casually opened for 1-2€ (10-20bb) and get 5 calls.

This is a pretty good indicator to raise the stakes. If you're doing 200bbs people will need to bring 150 minimum. That's a big jump from $60 so make sure they're good with that.

Another option is Pot Limit pre flop. For simplicity, I'd make it .10/.10 + .10 big blind ante so the opening raises is .50.

 

[FestiveKnight]

What everyone is saying is the default approach and is probably right. If people are too loose, up the stakes. But I’ll just say, be careful about it.

Early on when I was figuring out stakes I concluded that really it just wasn’t respectful play. The stakes would only do so much. A portion of my players were going to be loose and splashy up to stakes that would drive out the other portion. So I instead gave some speeches about it and lowered the stakes lol.

The goal should be higher caliber poker play and not just gambling by shoving all the time. It’s amazing how well (generally) the group has maintained taking the stakes seriously.

Not everyone can do this. Some folks will say every pot “it’s only a few cents” but it’s possible to get the group to keep it low and shift their goal (play their best poker, regardless of stakes) rather than increasing the pain.

@Roslindale runs great microstakes games, his game used to be bigger but he adjusted it down and it feels just as serious and attentive as any other home game I’ve played. Even $1/$2 at nominally 20x bigger stakes.

 

[Booshme]

I think it’s time to raise the stakes godzilla. I play a .05/.10 or .10/.10 game with newcomers, and play at lot looser but also less aggressively to give them a decent chance at my money and it’s fun and I love it, BUT playing those stakes with only my main guys just annoys me because we end up raising what we would have raised at .25/.25 anyways lol.

If you want to keep the nickels in play, maybe an ante considering this myself for some more action

 

[Booshme]

What everyone is saying is the default approach and is probably right. If people are too loose, up the stakes. But I’ll just say, be careful about it.

Early on when I was figuring out stakes I concluded that really it just wasn’t respectful play. The stakes would only do so much. A portion of my players were going to be loose and splashy up to stakes that would drive out the other portion. So I instead gave some speeches about it and lowered the stakes lol.

The goal should be higher caliber poker play and not just gambling by shoving all the time. It’s amazing how well (generally) the group has maintained taking the stakes seriously.

Not everyone can do this. Some folks will say every pot “it’s only a few cents” but it’s possible to get the group to keep it low and shift their goal (play their best poker, regardless of stakes) rather than increasing the pain.

@Roslindale runs great microstakes games, his game used to be bigger but he adjusted it down and it feels just as serious and attentive as any other home game I’ve played. Even $1/$2 at nominally 20x bigger stakes.

@Roslindale any tips or pointers on how you run your game??

 

[Roslindale]

Micro-stakes can be fun.

Its definitely a good conversation to have over a coffee. Especially because there are many variables and factors at play.

One of the biggest factors in my experience is, buy-in amount and re-buy/top-offs. It actually effects play more then blind amount.

Im literally heading out the door for a meal, or i would try to type more.

 

[TheRealStephen12]

It‘s not like anyone was complaining it was a really fun night! Just that people often casually opened for 1-2€ (10-20bb) and get 5 calls. One of the players (the only really experienced one) suggested me that I probably don‘t need the nickels.

Had I known raises were to 1€, I definitely would have said raise the stakes. .25/.25 with 50€ max buy-ins should work well. You might want to get some 20€ or 25€ chips to cover the bank though (you could use the old .05s as a placeholder until you get correct denominations in the mean time).

 

[Gojira777]

Had I known raises were to 1€, I definitely would have said raise the stakes. .25/.25 with 50€ max buy-ins should work well. You might want to get some 20€ or 25€ chips to cover the bank though (you could use the old .05s as a placeholder until you get correct denominations in the mean time).

Yeah I should have been more clear about the ‚issue‘. Maybe I‘ll have a talk to some of the players and ask for their thoughts in advance. Or maybe I‘ll do a poll in our group chat. I don‘t want to scare any players off since the group consists mostly of my closest friends, and I would like to keep playing with them while growing the group together.

 

[Gojira777]

I did 10€-20€ buyins in .05/.10 and I would probably do 20€-50€ buyins in .25/.25.

As @SteveEH said, the jump from bringing 60€ for the night to 150€ can be pretty intimidating.

 

[Jimulacrum]

The 5c chips were absolutely unnecessary and annoying to count and the workhorse chips were the 1s, not the quarters as I intended.

Sorry I didn‘t mention: Buyins were 10-20€, so 100-200bb. Most bought in for the max.

It‘s not like anyone was complaining it was a really fun night! Just that people often casually opened for 1-2€ (10-20bb) and get 5 calls. One of the players (the only really experienced one) suggested me that I probably don‘t need the nickels.

I did 10€-20€ buyins in .05/.10 and I would probably do 20€-50€ buyins in .25/.25.

As @SteveEH said, the jump from bringing 60€ for the night to 150€ can be pretty intimidating.

Based on what you're saying, a change sounds warranted. They're playing more or less like it's 25c/25c already.

Your concern about more than doubling the buy-ins does make sense, though. I bet it feels pretty comfortable for most of your players to throw in 20€ at a time, and that's part of what makes the game splashy. Disturbing that may disturb the balance that's filling your game with action.

What about bumping up to 25c/25c but with the same buy-in limits, 10€ to 20€ (or maybe just flat 20€)? Not every game has to kick off at 200 BB. It's still 80 BB, not deep but not unplayable either. From the sound of it, stacks will deepen pretty quickly.

You can treat it as an experiment. If players are happy with it, great. You solved your nickel problem and didn't mess anything up. Carry on.

If players start talking about upping the buy-ins, then maybe you decide to do that too.

 

[4SUMERZ]

My 8 player home Cash Game is $0.25/$0.25 $25.00 buy in with $25.00 worth on chips (face value) 100 BB made up of following chips
8 - $0.25
10 - $0.50
13 - $1.00
1 - $5

Rebuys of $25 ( made up of $1.00 and $5.00 chips only) can be bought once a player stack is less than $7.00, unlimited rebuys.
We play for 4.5 hours per session, then cash in.
At the start of the game, we all throw in $2.00 into a pot which the high hand of the night wins at cash out. We may raise that to $5.00 in the future.
Dealer choice between Hold'Em, Pineapple, and Hi 4 card Omaha, all no limit.

 

[Gojira777]

What about bumping up to 25c/25c but with the same buy-in limits, 10€ to 20€ (or maybe just flat 20€)? Not every game has to kick off at 200 BB. It's still 80 BB, not deep but not unplayable either. From the sound of it, stacks will deepen pretty quickly.

You can treat it as an experiment. If players are happy with it, great. You solved your nickel problem and didn't mess anything up. Carry on.

If players start talking about upping the buy-ins, then maybe you decide to do that too.

I actually like this idea, I have not thought about that yet. You‘re right 80bb should still work out fine.

I would assume some of the players would still buy in for 20€ even if I the buyin ranges from 20€ to 50€, at least until they get used to it. On the other hand I can already hear some other guys asking to buy in for more lmao.

Maybe I‘ll try that for our next game. Although I do like to give players the option for how much they buyin for raher than fixed buyins.
I feel like 10€ for 40bbs might be a bit too tight for a .25/.25.

 

[TheRealStephen12]

I actually like this idea, I have not thought about that yet. You‘re right 80bb should still work out fine.

I would assume some of the players would still buy in for 20€ even if I the buyin ranges from 20€ to 50€, at least until they get used to it. On the other hand I can already hear some other guys asking to buy in for more lmao.

Maybe I‘ll try that for our next game. Although I do like to give players the option for how much they buyin for raher than fixed buyins.
I feel like 10€ for 40bbs might be a bit too tight for a .25/.25.

Definitely go €20-50. It allows people to still bring €60, while people who want to play higher stakes can buy-in higher.

 

[Mushmanchuman]

If everyone is comfortable risking $100 total for the night, bumping to .25/.25 will be no issue. If people only want to risk $20 for the night, it may be wiser to keep it at .05/.10.

And if you wanna keep it at .5/.10 that works if everyone’s initially buying in for $20. If you have a bunch of cats buying in for the table max ($40-$60) the. You can add a rock straddle or Mississippi straddle for a quarter to make the majority of hands play at .25.

The straddles if you don’t know are paid for by the house and worth say, $1 if you have the straddle chip at the end.

The straddle plays either when the player holding the chip is in the dealer position or under the gun. If player forgets to play straddle then it goes into the pot.

 

[Gojira777]

The idea I like best for now is doing a optional straddle next game! I will try how people like it and just ask the table after a couple hours if they want to do a few orbits with a mandatory straddle to 20c or 25c and see how it goes. That way we keep our buyins for now. I don‘t want to scare anyone away, rather do small steps. Maybe this will play just perfect, we‘ll see. I can always go .25/.25 later. I‘ll tell players to bring some extra money if they feel comfortable with it!

 

[Labrat]

I don't know, from what you're describing with your players a straddle is the last thing you need since straddles are meant to loosen up play and can promote bullying. You've already got loose play from what you've been saying.

 

[Gojira777]

I don't know, from what you're describing with your players a straddle is the last thing you need since straddles are meant to loosen up play and can promote bullying. You've already got loose play from what you've been saying.

Hmm ok I thought it would be a good idea to adjust the stakes slowly..

 

[curlyhead44]

0.25/0.25 made the most sense to me on reading this unless you're hoping to suppress the total buy ins down a bit, but the game is already playing like 0.25/0.25 so the blind may not actually change anything. Some kind of limit scenario or tourneys would be ways to try to limit the buy in total if that was needed.

 

[Labrat]

0.25/0.25 made the most sense to me on reading this unless you're hoping to suppress the total buy ins down a bit, but the game is already playing like 0.25/0.25 so the blind may not actually change anything. Some kind of limit scenario or tourneys would be ways to try to limit the buy in total if that was needed.

Agreed, but it doesn't sound like this group all that against re-buys, lol.

I would bump it to .25/.25, maybe keep the buy-ins at €20 and then see what the result is.

 

[Mushmanchuman]

The idea I like best for now is doing an optional straddle next game! I will try how people like it and just ask the table after a couple hours if they want to do a few orbits with a mandatory straddle to 20c or 25c and see how it goes. That way we keep our buyins for now. I don‘t want to scare anyone away, rather do small steps. Maybe this will play just perfect, we‘ll see. I can always go .25/.25 later. I‘ll tell players to bring some extra money if they feel comfortable with it!

Pitch the straddle as “Hey guys you want to end up with the straddle at the end of the night. It’s worth 4X…” That helps them see it as a bonus they should fight to win and less about an added blind or feeling like they are getting taxed.”

Running an optional straddle limits it to the players that wanna play big. Nits won’t straddle and feel when someone else does it is punishing them. Or they get pissed about making their blind .25 instead of a dime.

 

[Gojira777]

First of all: Thank you for all of the ideas!

After some time for consideration I decided I want to try a .25/.25 with a 20€ fixed buyin.
Still I am struggling a bit with how I should allow top ups. In my .05/.10 game we were playing relatively deep with usually 200+ bb. I just said you can always top up to 20€ which was also the max buy in. But I don‘t want to do add ons for odd amounts. With 20€ in .25/.25 we will only have 80bbs. I am very fine with addons enabeling you to go a bit above 80bbs without raising the buyins for now.

Would it be reasonable to make a rule that says you can add up to 20€ to your stack once you‘re under 10€? This would allow up to (or close to) 30€ in your stack for 120bb. That way I don‘t have to count out chips and I could just hand out a barrel of 1s. Would this be an unfair advantage since the max buy in is only 20€? What would your alternatives sound like?

Please let me know what you think!

 

[QuietMaple]

I think your idea of "you can add up to 20€ to your stack once you‘re under 10€" is fine. Yes it allows those players to get a little deeper stacked, but I don't think that would affect play in any sort of appreciable way.

For what it's worth, I usually play similar stakes: .25/.25 with a $30 max buy-in. I allow players to top up to $30-ish* whenever they want, and I don't find it very difficult to count out chips. The reason I say "$30-ish" is because I round for these re-buys. If someone has like $12.75 left in their stack and they want to top up, I just let them top up for $20 more, I don't make it an exact $17.25.