Do home games usually take a commission? (2 Viewers)

[Cratty]

Thanks everyone for the comments. really appreciate the perspectives.

To add a bit more context: this was a game hosted by someone I know, but we’re not particularly close. I went in expecting a fairly friendly, casual environment, but it turned out I didn’t know about 90% of the people there.

The host had his wife dealing, and each time someone won a hand, she would ask for a “tip.” It wasn’t framed as a formal rake, but there was definitely an expectation, and I felt some peer pressure to tip.

I’m not quite sure how to define it—tip vs commission—but in practice it felt like a commission tied to winning hands.

Curious how others here would view this. Is this considered normal for home games, or is it something you’d want clearly disclosed upfront?

I’ve also found that when someone’s spouse repeatedly asks for “just the tip” in a room full of men holding their stacks - clarity is important.

 

[Gus]

As with any group activity, especially if there’s strangers or even friends-of-friends, it’s always best to know up front what the deal is. It seems like the three options are:
-no money for services, just friends playing
-money paid for service, but not to host (it’s not a business operation, more like a catered party instead of a nightclub). No profit motive by host
-it’s a business. The game runners rake or charge fees, and in return provide dealing and other services. They have a profit motive.

The micro stakes games I play in are zero rake, but we do pool cash for food and it’s BYOB. Basically it’s just a hang-out and we all chip in, with folks happy to host since it’s so much fun. I end up dealing almost the whole time because nobody else really knows how, and the game spins off the rails if shuffling and dealing starts taking forever with sloppiness, misdeals, forgetting to get everyone’s hand in, etc. I wouldn’t do it with strangers. Biggest problem is it makes socializing hard if you have to be paying attention to every hand

A real dealer does much more - laser focus on the game and authority to resolve disputes (he said call that’s why I flipped my hand!!!), make change during play (calling a $10 with a $25 chip without having to ask your neighbor for change first), may even track missed blinds, etc

If I were playing for more than $25 or so I’d want a real dealer, or at least 80% of the players being serious/on task

Casinos have real dealers of course, and I played in a raked game in Manhattan with real dealers in a very janky 2-3 table underground club. The casino rake is sizable, but the underground rake was insane. I think 12% or something comically stupid. But it was fun for an occasional night out.

Some states I think require dealers to be tip-only, where cardrooms cannot pay them a wage and technically anyone at the table can request to deal their hand. In practice the deal is “tip your dealer because he’s going to go away if he’s not making about $20/hr (hopefully more if it’s a good game with lots of big pots)”

Molly’s game, if the movie is to be believed, was tip-only for the first years. High stakes and it seemed like the deal was if you won big (6-figures) you’d probably tip $5k and if you were down 6 figures you could storm/sulk out of the room without tipping. And if you were a regular you’d plan to pay $500+ as a courtesy. Pro dealers, fancy hotel suite setting, beautiful women as waitresses with free booze… I think the sharks also would tip generously when Molly could get rich fish into the game, basically a finder’s fee for soft action. I could be way off on this, anyone know better?

I wouldn’t want to ever play a raked game at someone’s home. Tip-only dealer? So long as it’s transparent and not shady. Better option seems to be “hey it’s $50 to play tonight, we hired a dealer who’s bringing a great table, he’s fun and a consummate pro” which means the host isn’t making money. “If we wanna keep going after 2am it’ll be another $10/hr each for his time”

I have read a little about the Tom Goldstein trial (mega high stakes player, mostly heads up, around the world) hoping to learn about the setup and setting of these multi million dollar games but nothing’s really been revealed.

Is there a norm for how streamed games like HCL and the Lodge do it? I think with the lodge each player pays up front for a chunk of time. Unsure if this covers dealer tip only, or if it goes to the club too. I don’t think they rake the game. Players definitely tip on HCL, and that show also has sponsors for revenue. I don’t know how Okin’s game at the Venetian does it, or if Venetian is big enough that they use the entire thing as marketing for the casino.

—

Edit: forgot to add that taking an explicit rake is what makes games illegal for the host, and possibly for the players too. Relevant because if the game got robbed, you’re not really going to be able to call the cops if it’s a raked game, whereas if it’s a casual game with friends that’s different.

There may also be a legal line around whether the game is advertised to the public vs just word of mouth in a network. The former constituting business activity while the latter is just friends playing games.

 

[bakjak]

I suppose I should say that the game I last played in was more family oriented and included 12-14 players at one table. Very micro-stakes. Again, more for the fun and being "lucky" for the high hand pot. If I miss out later on by not being at a game, no biggie, it's 0.25 cents flat a pot, probably 2-5% of a pot at most at any given time.

In general, I'm not really all about commission / rake at all for home games. Tipping a full-time dealer, sure. Pots like above, sure. I'm just trying to have a good time.

 

[SixSeven]

Ok, I have played in a "private" or "house" game, where it was at location, not a home, with a dealer, and truly no limit, compared to where in my state, it is spread limit. It was relatively "big" game, $1-$3 Max $500 to start. I played a little, and there was pressure to tip the dealer a dollar or 2 every time I won a pot, and if it was a big pot, at least $5. I didn't like that. But that was the expectation. I wasn't told this ahead of time, and when I played the 2nd time, I was aware, and I liked the host (so that is why I came back), but the pressure wasn't fun. I know at the casino, it is expected. I guess at this game, the invite should have a note regarding that, as others above have noted.

For my home games, among friends, or friends of friends I know, I like the idea of asking for an upfront $5 or $10 "tip" or donation for the host of a home game, and then forgetting about it. Which sorta leads to my question, maybe a bit off topic, of the expectation to tip at the end of the night, for a tourney or cash game. It is standard to tip the house 5 or 10 percent for a tourney win in a public/casino game, but do you feel it is mandatory in a home game among friends? What about for a cash game? Is it mandatory tip to home game host if you are big winner? If so, in a cash game, what is the difference between that and a tip during or before hand? Like I said, I like the upfront $5 or $10 and that takes away the pressure at the end for the big winners to decide how much to tip. I know when new players come into my games, they don't know about tipping at all at the end, and sometimes I have to educate them. My thoughts are - big winners should tip something - and losers aren't expected to. With the $5 or $10 tipping ahead of time idea, that eliminates any pressure at the end, makes it even to all players, and also when people are getting ready to leave, even if they are big winners, they may get busy leaving and forget to tip. Thanks for any thoughts about this.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Ok, I have played in a "private" or "house" game, where it was at location, not a home, with a dealer, and truly no limit, compared to where in my state, it is spread limit. I played a little, and there was pressure to tip the dealer a dollar or 2 every time I won a pot, and if it was a big pot, at least $5. I didn't like that. But that was the expectation. I wasn't told this ahead of time, and when I played the 2nd time, I was aware, and I liked the host (so that is why I came back), but the pressure wasn't fun. I know at the casino, it is expected. I guess at this game, the invite should have a note regarding that, as others above have noted.

Sounds like a great game to avoid. Tell me more about "there was pressure." Who applied this pressure and how?

(It sounds like their tipping expectations are substantially higher than what's normal at a casino.)

I like the idea of asking for an upfront $5 or $10 "tip" or donation for the host of a home game, and then forgetting about it. Which sorta leads to my question, maybe a bit off topic, of the expectation to tip at the end of the night, for a tourney or cash game. It is standard to tip the house 5 or 10 percent for a tourney win in a public/casino game, but do you feel it is mandatory in a home game among friends? What about for a cash game? Is it mandatory tip to home game host if you are big winner? If so, in a cash game, what is the difference between that and a tip during or before hand? Like I said, I like the upfront $5 or $10 and that takes away the pressure at the end for the big winners to decide how much to tip. I know when new players come into my games, they don't know about tipping at all at the end, and sometimes I have to educate them. My thoughts are - big winners should tip something - and losers aren't expected to. With the $5 or $10 tipping ahead of time idea, that eliminates any pressure at the end, makes it even to all players, and also when people are getting ready to leave, even if they are big winners, they may get busy leaving and forget to tip. Thanks for any thoughts about this.

I do generally tip the host if I have a winning session, but it's usually more of a round-off than a percent-based tip (e.g., I end with $228 in chips, and I throw the host the $8 and tell him $220 is good). That said, it's a personal thing that I do. It's not mandatory or even expected by most hosts I've known.

It's also not something I'm going to pressure or "educate" anyone about. I both play and host games, and while I appreciate any tip anyone gives me when I host, I do not expect, solicit, or even suggest it. I don't care if someone cleans out the whole game and cashes out down to the last dollar without a tip. Doesn't bother me or make me think any less of the person.

Tipping upfront is so contrary to the whole premise of tipping—a reward for high-quality service—that I'm completely opposed to it across the board, for poker or any other purpose. Having everyone chip in $5 or $10 at the start of the game amounts to a seat charge. If that's what it's going to be, it should be a clearly stated rule, not a weird quasi-mandatory "tip."

I know this is easier for some folks than others, but you gotta stop caring so much about these ridiculous forms of social pressure. Tipping as a formalized cultural phenomenon is massively toxic. It's bad enough that it's a thing in casinos without also making it a thing in home games.

 

[Jimulacrum]

My 2 cents:

Tips should be kept separate from the player's stack and not used in game. To your point, you don't want to your opponent to use your generosity against you. If said dealer busts out and wants to rebuy with the tips, that's fine.

I do think dealers who handle the whole night should be tipped through. That gig requires a lot of work and mental bandwidth that they cannot put into the game for themselves. If people are sharing the gig or handing off, then no tip is fine.

My POV is that a dedicated dealer makes the game so much smoother and faster and we see so many more hands (especially if they handle all shuffles) that it's worth some money coming off the table. Our benefit is greater than the cost. We no longer have player-dealers though. Dedicated dealer-only types who expect tips (as they should), and I encourage all guests to tip. Everyone seems cool with it. YMMV

I am occasionally the dedicated dealer. Tips are nice, but really what I expect is a reasonable hourly rate, however it's structured. Allowing the dealer to take a small rake (like $1 or $2 max, not casino-level) can often be quite enough to take care of compensation, and players will tend to throw in some tips as well.

 

[LotsOfChips]

For my home games, among friends, or friends of friends I know, I like the idea of asking for an upfront $5 or $10 "tip" or donation for the host of a home game, and then forgetting about it.

Why do you think that your friends should provide a tip or donation? What special services are you providing (beyond a place to play and the company of friends)? If you invited your friends (and friends of friends) over to watch a football game, would you ask for an upfront tip or donation?

I know when new players come into my games, they don't know about tipping at all at the end, and sometimes I have to educate them.

I've never heard of any place (casino or home game) that expects a tip at the end of the evening. Waiters and valets, sure. Hosts of home games? Not so much.

Tossing the uneven amounts to the host, or a few bucks if you are a winner is all well and good. "Educating" players that it is a requirement is something else.

If you tried to "educate" me before the game started, I would probably not attend. If you tried to "educate" me at the end of the game, I might or might not comply, but sure as hell, it would be the last time I ever attended your game.

 

[Jimulacrum]

If you tried to "educate" me before the game started, I would probably not attend.

Same, especially if it's the host "educating" me.

 

[SixSeven]

Tossing the uneven amounts to the host, or a few bucks if you are a winner is all well and good. "Educating" players that it is a requirement is something else.

If you tried to "educate" me before the game started, I would probably not attend. If you tried to "educate" me at the end of the game, I might or might not comply, but sure as hell, it would be the last time I ever attended your game.

Thanks for this response. I'm glad I asked it. I can still learn a thing or two. As I have been playing for the last few years, other more experienced players have told me 5 to 10 percent tip for tourneys, is the norm. Maybe they are wrong? I will refrain from educating someone in the future. I had a big winner in one of my big tourneys, 1st place plus lots of bounties, and he didn't tip a dollar, and I was sorta surprised. I guess I made the mistake of sharing a couple days later that it is normal to tip. He hasn't played again. Makes sense why now. I didn't know about tipping at end in a cash home game or tourney, when I first started playing several years ago. Others "educated" me. But I think it can make sense to thank someone at the end for a great time and good profit. Last night I played in someone else's tourney, came in 1st, and felt I needed to tip. I gave 10 percent. 5 percent made more sense to me , but I had a great time. I'm still learning.

Same, especially if it's the host "educating" me.

Thanks for the feedback. Live and learn.

Tipping upfront is so contrary to the whole premise of tipping—a reward for high-quality service—that I'm completely opposed to it across the board, for poker or any other purpose. Having everyone chip in $5 or $10 at the start of the game amounts to a seat charge. If that's what it's going to be, it should be a clearly stated rule, not a weird quasi-mandatory "tip."

I hear you. It sounded ok the way the chipper/poster presented it, but you make better case for against it. Thx.

 

[LotsOfChips]

more experienced players have told me 5 to 10 percent tip for tourneys, is the norm. Maybe they are wrong?

Maybe in a tournament setting in a casino. The dealers live on tips, and you don't tip during hands in a tournament, so tipping on a win seems a reasonable thing to do. 5-10% of the prize pool seems kind of excessive to me, but I'm pretty cheap. I would probably go for a fixed dollar amount, depending on the amount I won. Cashing out with barely recouping your buyin isn't worth giving 10% (IMO). Taking home first place might be worth the cost of a buyin as a dealer tip, if there is more than two tables.

For home games, no way tips should be mandatory, or even expected (IMO). A fixed dollar amount might be appropriate for a dedicated (non-playing) dealer, but tipping the house in a home game just rubs me the wrong way, especially as a percentage of the prize pool. Shared food costs? Absolutely. Tossing the host a few bucks as a way to say thanks for hosting? Sure, if you want to do it as a spontaneous gesture. But there shouldn't (IMO) be an expectation, and if there is, I'm probably playing elsewhere.

Note that circumstances may be different if its a "commercial venture" providing security, credit, drinks, food, massages, etc. But that's not a "home game" IMO, that's an underground casino.

I had a big winner in one of my big tourneys, 1st place plus lots of bounties, and he didn't tip a dollar, and I was sorta surprised. I guess I made the mistake of sharing a couple days later that it is normal to tip. He hasn't played again.

IMO, you might want to think about why you are hosting. Is it because you enjoy hosting, including the opportunity to spend time with friends and people with similar interests (like playing poker), or is there an expectation that you should recoup all of the money you have ever spent on tables, chairs, chips, cards, etc., and possibly make a few extra bucks as well?

If it is the former, then forget anything anybody ever told you about tipping. If it is the latter, then start charging rake/time charges/mandatory or expected tips, etc. But two things:

1. - you should let your players know up front (not days later) what your expectations are.
2. - you should know that you are running an illegal gaming establishment (as defined in most jurisdictions), and you are opening yourself up for a world of potential problems, including armed robbery, police raids, prosecution and forfeiture of all of your chips/tables/cards and possibly your home.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Thanks for this response. I'm glad I asked it. I can still learn a thing or two. As I have been playing for the last few years, other more experienced players have told me 5 to 10 percent tip for tourneys, is the norm. Maybe they are wrong? I will refrain from educating someone in the future. I had a big winner in one of my big tourneys, 1st place plus lots of bounties, and he didn't tip a dollar, and I was sorta surprised. I guess I made the mistake of sharing a couple days later that it is normal to tip. He hasn't played again. Makes sense why now. I didn't know about tipping at end in a cash home game or tourney, when I first started playing several years ago. Others "educated" me. But I think it can make sense to thank someone at the end for a great time and good profit. Last night I played in someone else's tourney, came in 1st, and felt I needed to tip. I gave 10 percent. 5 percent made more sense to me , but I had a great time. I'm still learning.

This is what I mean about tipping being toxic.

There's never a clear rule, only an unending flood of etiquette talk and personal anecdotes that obfuscate more than they clarify.

Even in cases where there is a definite norm that will be enforced on you (via yet more social pressure), you seldom get a straight, honest answer. People all around the US are still half-operating under the lie that tipping is an optional add-on "for exceptional service."

"Tip whatever you're comfortable with," they say.

So you tip what you're comfortable with, and the server goes to the manager and says you're a cheapskate, and now the manager follows you out of the restaurant to tell you it was too little and hassle you for more.

I don't even want to get into what tipping has turned into today, with people being expected to tack on 20% for pick-up orders and self-checkout. Obscene.

I like informal tipping. Electing to throw someone a few extra bucks when it's not expected can be nice and appreciated. As a quasi-voluntary practice that's effectively socially mandatory, it's absolute dogshit.

 

[Jimulacrum]

spontaneous gesture

Perfect phrase. This is what tipping should always be, a spontaneous gesture.

 

[SixSeven]

If it is the former, then forget anything anybody ever told you about tipping. If it is the latter, then start charging rake/time charges/mandatory or expected tips, etc.

It's the former. I never started hosting to make money off players. I liked the competition, and I liked creating community. Also, I liked being able to set the stakes, and play in a game where 420 isn't being done while the game going on, is not the norm.

I'm not interested in running a for profit game or playing in one. I already mentioned in the beginning of my earlier post on this, how I didn't like being pressured into tipping 1 or 2 dollars or 5 dollars if it was a big pot. I think I am with both of you and don't like the tipping culture we have. But I do feel the pressure, and others have made me aware of it.

There's never a clear rule, only an unending flood of etiquette talk and personal anecdotes that obfuscate more than they clarify.

Yeah, I feel it.

I don't even want to get into what tipping has turned into today, with people being expected to tack on 20% for pick-up orders and self-checkout. Obscene.

and yeah tipping 20 percent for pick up food is not my idea of where we should be at.

I'm thankful for both of your responses, because it isn't a clear rule, but have been going off of what others that came before me instilled. It's good to get your feedback.

I'd love to to hear what @JustinInMN and @CraigT78 has to say.

 

[GrizzKS]

I guess I'll wade into the discussion. I hosted a near monthly game for 4-5 years. Always a $20 tourney first then a cash game after if players were still around and they usually were. In my home and I provided a meal and everyone BYOB and a snack to share. I'd usually get 15-20 players, usually 2 tables, sometimes three on cheap toppers and folding tables and Monte Carlo chips. Managed the game with "The Tournament Director" but a wide blend of skill from all the players. A true case of my social circles all colliding. All tables are self-dealt. Never asked or received a tip.

I moved into a much smaller place a few years ago and now I have a friend that hosts for us. Our stakes have risen to a $50 buy in for the tourney. About 30 players in the pool but usually 12-18 and 2 tables. Now on a poker table and a small pool table that we run a topper on. I love having a co-host, he provides food, beer, and soft drinks. He also provides a mid-level bottle of bourbon. I have started to ask for a $10 donation to the host for his trouble and haven't received a single complaint or drop in numbers.

I promise that $120 - $180 doesn't put an extra nickel in my co-hosts pocket after he does the shopping.

Still rocking the Monte Carlos's but looking forward to the Thirsty bear chips from Tina!

 

[LotsOfChips]

I have started to ask for a $10 donation to the host for his trouble and haven't received a single complaint or drop in numbers.

If you make it known up front that this is the expectation, and the amount asked is approximately equal to the amount the host provides in food and beverages, then I wouldn't have an issue at all, and I expect that most people on the forum (and off the forum) would feel the same. I'm happy to contribute to cover the shared cost of food/beverages and other consumables.

Where I start to bristle is when the expectation isn't communicated up front, and where the proceeds are going into the host's pocket, or are covering things that they will own afterwards (tables, chairs, chips, cards, etc.) and that most hosts provide for free without a second thought.

 

[thePokerClub]

'To rake is a mistake'....