Bank a little light at night's end... Etiquette? (1 Viewer)

[ekricket]

lol, when it’s long they say “buy us some food next time”.
When it’s short they say “sorry, you should keep better records” and also “buy us some food next time”, lol.

 

[valleychips]

When first playing, the banks on the west coast always had written ledger.

I thought it was a great idea.

Since, every single game I’ve played, someone has always been not a fan and we nix it.

We are, in almost every single state, either breaking the law, skirting the law, or tiptoeing right up to it.

I’m not sure everyone wants their data, including date and time they were present and took part, notated. Mayyyyyyybe on paper and shredded/tossed.

Def deleted once the books zero out

 

[valleychips]

I've run into a few banking problems over the years, and usually because I was drinking and would just grab chips for rebuys trusting that Venmo was received etc etc etc.

Now I run a strict cash in, cash out game. Everyone is aware that I will not take electronic payments. If you run out of cash, venmo someone else at the table and have them give you cash. This way I can audit the bank at any time by counting my empty racks and checking the cash bag.

By not offering Venmo personally, I don't have to work about transferring the funds to my back and getting the cash back out to refill my poker roll. I've got a couple of players who show up with more than enough cash to offer Degen loans at the table and it's one less thing for me to worry about as the host.

I would prefer this too. But to another user's salient point above and my own thinking, too much cash on the table is a security concern. So e-payments do benefit the group in some way. And modern players don't load up with cash unless they're visiting a proper casino or cardroom.

We're in a moment of flux, and I'm trying to adjust for various inputs. I want to keep the game healthy and growing. If the game were bigger, e-payments might become preferable. I'm not doing credit for anyone though, haha. Payment must be received first.

 

[PlaidDragon]

One bank, one banker. I am the only person who exchanges chips for cash and vice versa in my game.

^^^^^

This.

However, as a proud and vehemently stubborn gen X'r, if you don't bring cash to my game you'll be a spectator.

 

[Bacon Dad]

For the games that use fracs and you are receiving and sending Venmo payments, do you round down to the nearest dollar or do you send exact amounts at the end of the night?

 

[Jeff]

It sounds like there are plenty of hosts who apparently manage it well, but I feel managing electronic payments, notes, ledgers, IOU etc. are unnecessarily cumbersome to the host by making more work than is necessary.

The guest should make the stop at the ATM and take enough cash (and bring some small bills) or borrow from another guest...but keep it out of the host's responsibility.

I'm a traditional (Cash in, Chips out...Chips in, Cash out) host.

BTW, in the old Chiptalk days (think back to 2006-2007), Rob B. hosted a game downtown Chicago where he had a cabinet in his poker room (think old-fashioned small town mail box with doors and locks). Each of his regulars had their own box and many kept chips there instead of cashing out each game. I thought that was cool, but obviously that also could complicate things quite a bit.

 

[Tarsus4]

BTW, in the old Chiptalk days (think back to 2006-2007), Rob B. hosted a game downtown Chicago where he had a cabinet in his poker room (think old-fashioned small town mail box with doors and locks). Each of his regulars had their own box and many kept chips there instead of cashing out each game. I thought that was cool, but obviously that also could complicate things quite a bit.

My understanding is some card-rooms do this, too. You can keep chips or cash in what's essentially a safety deposit box. I like it in spirit, but the player's essentially giving the host a loan.

 

[valleychips]

For the games that use fracs and you are receiving and sending Venmo payments, do you round down to the nearest dollar or do you send exact amounts at the end of the night?

Any non-whole dollar amounts are removed and go as tips to any dealers before the official cash out, at least in my game.

 

[Josh Kifer]

Cash out everyone. I'm always last. What's left is my money wether it matches the chips or it's short.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Personally, I don’t necessarily feel comfortable being somewhere there’s $20,000 cash. That is life changing money for some people. Desperate times.

I should note that my cash only bank rules apply to a low stakes game where I never have more than low four figures in the bank. 10x that and my banking rules are likely going to change significantly for security reasons.

Now I run a strict cash in, cash out game. Everyone is aware that I will not take electronic payments. If you run out of cash, venmo someone else at the table and have them give you cash. This way I can audit the bank at any time by counting my empty racks and checking the cash bag.

By not offering Venmo personally, I don't have to work about transferring the funds to my back and getting the cash back out to refill my poker roll. I've got a couple of players who show up with more than enough cash to offer Degen loans at the table and it's one less thing for me to worry about as the host.

Many of my players will also do cash for e-payments with each other. I appreciate that, since it makes my hosting/banking job a little easier. But I am the option of last resort, and I'll happily do the trade (and pull it back out of my bank account later) to keep players in the game.

I usually just let the debt to my cash bankroll build up to 1k or so, then go to the bank once and pull it out.

 

[club_pkr]

Completely agree with the one banker - preferably the host - approach. Any other approach is too risky imo. Also, immediately record all buy-ins, using a notepad, spreadsheet, the club-pkr app. Whatever you use, just make sure it is recorded immediately along with proof of payment - if sent via bank transfer / e-payment.

This approach might be a little too extreme for some but I think it ensures the game is fully settled once complete.

 

[JustinInMN]

One solution I have is that I will be the only banker for all buy ins, add ons, and rebuys. And e-payments will be verified in cash with me and the player (payee), confirming the correct amount before I dole out chips. I suppose I was overdue for some kind of error, but it's the kind of thing that really bugs me. Thanks team.

One bank, one banker. I am the only person who exchanges chips for cash and vice versa in my game.

The bank itself is cash only, but I always have plenty of extra cash and allow players to exchange Zelle, Venmo, or CashApp for cash to rebuy.

These two things are the only way. One point of accountability. And I do exactly as @Schmendr1ck does as far as epayments go. If I take that, I put cash in the bank.

I'm creating a live updating spreadsheet in my phone to keep track of everything in and out now... so it should zero out at the end of every game.

Def gonna do one banker only from now on (me). Also I like the idea of starting with a known amount of cash. Good call. Thanks!

I really don't think recording individual transactions helps with banking error. Instead of recording individual transactions, just slow down your chip and cash count.

Ideally this is a good process and doing on the table will put multiple eyes on the process.

1) Player puts cash on the table.
2) Banker counts out chips on table next to cash.
3) Banker counts cash again to assure match in chips.
4) Player takes chips, banker takes cash
5) Banker verifies total in drawer

At step 4 both cash and chips are checked twice, plus the spot check for extra security.

As for step 5, I just start with $1450 in chips and $50 in cash in my drawer, and I know cash + chips should always equal $1500. If we get deep, I'll add one rack of red at a time to the drawer at a time to make $2000, and so forth.

 

[TheWhat]

I handle the same way as you. Host, handle all the chips, and all the cash.

We've had 3 minor outages, one a Reg refused to let me pay, that ended up being a stuck bill in the box. 2nd time a player was paid out too much, bills stuck together, he noticed it as he knew what he came with. 3rd time, was the eTransfer thing, I put cash in for those going digital, and I accidentally handed out 2 rebuys, for 1 payment.

Happy to live with it for almost a straight decade of hosting, and nearly 15 years total!

 

[valleychips]

Alright, the results are in. And they're excellent. I was the sole banker last night and tried my custom auto tallying spreadsheet (on my phone, google sheets). I entered all money in and all cash outs. It told me how much was in the bank at any time, which I verified several times throughout the night when I had a moment. It made the last cash out a breeze because I didn't have to just hope the bank was right -- I knew it was spot on. Also, I grouped the bills by denomination with little dividers between -- also made it much easier on me to verify the bank at any time. (It was all cash last night, no e-payments, but the spreadsheet would have accounted for those too.)

So yeah, I'll 100% be using this spreadsheet moving forward. Sure it takes a little more time for each cash in and rebuy... but it makes for a less stressful and smoother process at the end. And most importantly, it keeps the bank accurate! From error, something better was created. I like that. Thanks again for the input folks.

EDIT: Image of the spreadsheet (names anonymized) attached. I didn't put in the times when it was mass cash in or mass cash outs, and the medium was all cash (but there are options in the dropdowns for fully e-payments like Venmo, PayPal, Zelle, and also for e-payments to cash). But you get the gist. Colors were made to show best on my phone (night mode) but still work fine on desktop (screenshot).

 

[Mr Winberg]

I know I'm a minority on this one, but I don't agree with the common opinion that it is 100% on the host. Even if it's the host's mistake. The person puts the effort in to create a great night for his friends, and then his "friends" let him/her eat the costs?

For me it's no different than if someone organizes something, a trip for example, and let's everyone know "it's gonna cost X dollars per person". Then if that person says "crap, due to [some reason, maybe an error made by the petson, maybe bad luck, etc] the cost when up", are you really gonna let the person who did all the work eat that whole cost??

The title asks about etiquette. In my book, the proper etiquette is for the host's friends to act like friends.

 

[Labrat]

Our games are strictly social and nobody's wagering house payments, so being off 10 bucks with a $400-$500 total bank is no big deal to any of us and we move on.

It's occasionally been a few dollars on the postive side and it gets tossed to the big loser of the night.

 

[detroitdad]

I usually don't say anything. I just eat the loss. It rarely happens at this point.

I did text the group chat a few years ago. The bank was off by exactly $100.00's. I figured I didn't collect a buy in from someone. Said player immediately texted me that he had an extra hundy. I collected it at the next game. What happened, he showed up late. I was busy. I have him a barrel of fives with the intention to collect it later. I did, just a month later

 

[Josh Kifer]

I know I'm a minority on this one, but I don't agree with the common opinion that it is 100% on the host. Even if it's the host's mistake. The person puts the effort in to create a great night for his friends, and then his "friends" let him/her eat the costs?

For me it's no different than if someone organizes something, a trip for example, and let's everyone know "it's gonna cost X dollars per person". Then if that person says "crap, due to [some reason, maybe an error made by the petson, maybe bad luck, etc] the cost when up", are you really gonna let the person who did all the work eat that whole cost??

The title asks about etiquette. In my book, the proper etiquette is for the host's friends to act like friends.

At our game, as host, I pay.

But every time it's happened, the winners have happily tossed in and we all ate the Shit Sandwich. We are friends first and enjoy our dumb game.

 

[JustinInMN]

I know I'm a minority on this one, but I don't agree with the common opinion that it is 100% on the host. Even if it's the host's mistake. The person puts the effort in to create a great night for his friends, and then his "friends" let him/her eat the costs?

For me it's no different than if someone organizes something, a trip for example, and let's everyone know "it's gonna cost X dollars per person". Then if that person says "crap, due to [some reason, maybe an error made by the petson, maybe bad luck, etc] the cost when up", are you really gonna let the person who did all the work eat that whole cost??

The title asks about etiquette. In my book, the proper etiquette is for the host's friends to act like friends.

I'm in partial agreement with this.

I really appreciate that you want to look out for the host's upside. And FWIW, I think tipping hosts is a good etiquette for players that understand the host gets no other upside for his trouble.

So in that context, I do think the host has the highest responsibility to the bank, if not sole responsibility. But I agree, there is room in this belief that players helping on a rare occasion there is an issue is certainly good manners.

But I think it's important that the buck stops with one person. and the others if they contribute, do so voluntarily.

I was the sole banker last night and tried my custom auto tallying spreadsheet (on my phone, google sheets). I entered all money in and all cash outs. It told me how much was in the bank at any time, which I verified several times throughout the night when I had a moment. It made the last cash out a breeze because I didn't have to just hope the bank was right -- I knew it was spot on. Also, I grouped the bills by denomination with little dividers between -- also made it much easier on me to verify the bank at any time. (It was all cash last night, no e-payments, but the spreadsheet would have accounted for those too.)

I am glad this works for you, I do like spot checking for assurance, and I like keeping cash denominations separate for easy counting.

I'm still unclear what the spreadsheet does for you that counting cash and chips doesn't do, but whatever helps is good.

 

[valleychips]

I'm in partial agreement with this.

I really appreciate that you want to look out for the host's upside. And FWIW, I think tipping hosts is a good etiquette for players that understand the host gets no other upside for his trouble.

So in that context, I do think the host has the highest responsibility to the bank, if not sole responsibility. But I agree, there is room in this belief that players helping on a rare occasion there is an issue is certainly good manners.

But I think it's important that the buck stops with one person. and the others if they contribute, do so voluntarily.


I am glad this works for you, I do like spot checking for assurance, and I like keeping cash denominations separate for easy counting.

I'm still unclear what the spreadsheet does for you that counting cash and chips doesn't do, but whatever helps is good.

The auto tallying (of what *should* be in the bank) and time stamping (to pinpoint a potential erroneously recorded transaction) are huge. Without the sheet, I of course can count the bank at any time. But what am I comparing my count to? This system gives me peace of mind, and I can focus on playing well. I just have to handle transactions when I'm not in a hand.

 

[grantcm05]

I keep all my records in excel for the night, makes it easy to keep track when drinks start flowing. I agree with consensus though - if it happens more than once try eliminating variables one at a time (booze/processes/how late you play etc) until things improve and math starts mathing.

 

[TheYeti]

As host, I would never ask my players to help cover a bank shortage, I think that would be very bad etiquette. However, if they were to volunteer to help I probably wouldn't refuse.

The one time our bank was off significantly ($100, one buy-in) I ate it and no one volunteered, but there was just me and one other (losing) player left in the house at that point. I have no problem with that.

 

[Deucekies]

An idea that I don't think I saw mentioned yet: Consider buying a security camera and pointing it at the spot where all transactions are done. That way you can go back and see where the mistake was made. If I'm not mistaken, those cameras are getting cheaper and cheaper every day.