PAHWM: Attractive Hero has a Draw at the final table (1 Viewer)

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Ladies and Gentlemen, this is Combo(draw) Numba 5.
One, two, three four five everybody in the - if you aren't singing these lyrics I don't know what to tell you.

Our story finds our hero in the league finale of an online group: weekly turbo tournaments to build up points, with each week contributing to the finale pot. Bounty tournament, start very deep stack especially if you did well in the preceding tournaments. Hero has done well over the weeks with some weeks being clear punts. League is a mixture of more serious players, random recs, and some beginners. Some also play cash, enough to build up a meta between each other.

Finale: 13 players, each person has a free rebuy and one paid rebuy. First knockout gives a mystery bounty that will be pulled at the end, subsequent knockouts give nothing more than a warm fuzzy feeling. Hero, CO, and BB still have their bounties.

Other players probably see Hero as loose passive. Calling to see lots of flops then folding, overcalling bets hoping to get lucky, and calling too many rivers. Not playing my best in most Sunday tournaments and just gambling while distracted. Played more serious in the tourney but still goofy. Generally played safe until now with a healthy amount of c-bets and bluffs when I smelled weakness. Actually paying attention does wonders for the bottom line, and I suck at poker.

Hero had a great seat draw and had generally been chipping up for hours with some unrelated exploits, using the passive image to make barrels feel stronger. Fast forward 3 hours and we're 5 handed right after the bubble burst. I'll explain basic player tendencies but won't go into reads because some of them are on here and I'll be sharing this with them. We've already discussed it but I want to hear other thoughts that aren't tainted by results.

Players:
Hero (82 BB) UTG - Me, an attractive oceanographer who wants to feel alive.
CO (115 BB) - League owner. Competent player that gets momentum. Will stab but ICM aware and wants to win the bracelet to save on shipping costs.
BU (9 BB) - One of the more confident players, hanging around. Comfortable squeezing and putting people in tough spots but sitting on the second shortest stacks. Aggressive with draws and bluffs.
SB (4 BB) - Decent player but needs to make a move.
BB (150 BB) - Player who had the biggest stack coming into the tournament. Quite a tear during the league and playing well this game, can never count them out. Very confident and has thrown some serious bluffs down.

Ante is 0.1 BB from everyone.
SB posts 0.5
BB posts 1.0
Pot 2 BB
Hero has first to act.
ACTION?

I usually steam through this part but I want to hear thoughts. I'm stuck in the middle of the short stacks and big stacks. My usual open for the final table was 3 BB, but I was very ICM aware and thinking about what I would do if one of the shorties shoved.

 

[JMC9389]

Fold and move onto the next hand. No need to get involved here being the middle stack with lots of action still to come.

 

[Kain8]

Until the two short stacks are out, I'm not opening the betting on virtually anything other than big suited aces or mid to high pocket pairs. I'll happily pay a few orbits worth of blinds to ladder up.

 

[BKisback]

Same - too weak/not strong enough of a hand to get in a pot with such short stacks around. Toss it.

 

[WedgeRock]

First off, @ekricket does not approve of quantifying stack sizes and bets in terms of big blinds. Do better.

For this hand, fold all day, everyday. Maybe look at your cards a little longer before you fold them. Why get involved in speculative hand in EP? You might hit your flush and still have second best. Find a better spot.

Other players probably see Hero as loose passive. Calling to see lots of flops then folding,

Story checks out.

Me, an attractive oceanographer

Incorrect parameter entered. Please try again.

 

[upNdown]

Yeah, I've been trying to justify playing these beauties. A king IS a pretty strong card five-handed. And you have plenty of big blinds. So I get the temptation, and if you want to fuck around, go ahead, it's not the end of the world. But under the gun, with a short stack and a tiny stack, post-bubble? Best advice is to toss these back.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I hear you and need this criticism. LOL @WedgeRock I was honest!

Even 80 blinds deep you're thinking this way?? No brainer fold for me if the three big stacks are around 30 or even 40, but with this depth I can't wait around for them to double up, I need to accumulate chips and we have tons of breathing room. I'm less worried about laddering and making a small pay jump versus getting the pretty gold bracelet for #1 place, and I gotta be happy with a suited broadway 5 ways. 80 big blinds effective is pretty comfortable.

Not arguing you're wrong, presenting my line of thinking. In my head, with ICM considerations, I would be wary of opening below 50 BB and will really tighten my range. Above 50 I prefer not to wait around for that many orbits, I need to have some opens. Yes I'm UTG but I'm middle position if we see a flop. I think I'm in the wrong here after reading through all your advice and appreciate the criticism.

Obviously since I posted a thread it makes it pretty obvious I got involved here. I had some momentum and BU seemed distracted.

Players:
Hero (82 BB) UTG - Me, an attractive oceanographer who wants to feel alive.
CO (115 BB) - League owner. Competent player that gets momentum. Will stab but ICM aware and wants to win the bracelet to save on shipping costs.
BU (9 BB) - One of the more confident players, hanging around. Comfortable squeezing and putting people in tough spots but sitting on the second shortest stacks. Aggressive with draws and bluffs.
SB (4 BB) - Decent player but needs to make a move.
BB (150 BB) - Player who had the biggest stack coming into the tournament. Quite a tear during the league and playing well this game, can never count them out. Very confident and has thrown some serious bluffs down.

Ante is 0.1 BB from everyone.
SB posts 0.5
BB posts 1.0
Pot 2 BB
Hero has first to act.
Hero raises to 3 BB. I don't mind facing an all-in from the tiny stack SB.
CO raises to 7.5 BB. I've seen this before. I'll type what I think he's thinking but who knows if I was right: he believes I'm opening wider because of the short stacks, I had raised quite a few times and was chipping up a bit.
BU Folds
SB calls All-in for 4 BB. No bounty considered.
BB calls 7.5 BB. This is less scary than it should be, he has been known to call wide out of position and probably thinks I don't squeeze enough (I don't, duh!).
Back to Hero. Pot is now 22.5 BB with an all-in.

I won't stop us here, I called. Calling a 3 bet isn't fun but calling a 3 bet with another caller is much easier. If I am assuming their ranges are wider (5 hours in, tired, and relatively deep stacked for final table), I am comfortable playing KTdd in this position.

I call. Roast me please.
Pot 27 BB. So heading to the flop with an all-in and two mid stacks

FLOP:
SB ALLIN
BB (142 BB) - Checks
Hero UTG (75 BB)
ACTION?

 

[JMC9389]

Check

 

[ekricket]

First off, @ekricket does not approve of quantifying stack sizes and bets in terms of big blinds. Do better.

Chip stacks should always be presented in percentage of the starting bank. Anything else is just smoke and mirrors.

As in:

Player 1 has 23% of the bank
Player 2 has 1.4% of the bank
Etc..

 

[Jers28]

I’m with the fellas that I’d probably have mucked the hand pre flop, but you’re in it now. If the BB wasn’t as described, I’m probably betting to get him out, but you mentioned he’s a solid player who is perfectly happy to make big bluffs, so I think check is the right play. I don’t want to have him check raise me and put me to an all or nothing situation on a draw, even as strong a draw as you have. Check and . He likely is now thinking if either of you makes a hand and knocks the all in out, it’s still a win and I’d be of a similar frame of mind. Take the free card.

 

[WedgeRock]

As played, bet 18 BB (i.e. 2/3rds of pot). If BB calls, you have last action to check back a turn that doesn't complete your draw. BB check-raise is painful. Given his description (and yours), I don't think he's checking to check raise you, though.

You're flipping against QJ (is he three betting QJ pre?) or KK and a 60-40 dog to QQ/JJ. You're actually ahead of AA.

 

[MC_CPA]

Am I punting if I put all the money in "because im feeling lucky" and then telling them to fold because "you'll see the river anyway because someone else is all in"

 

[WedgeRock]

Chip stacks should always be presented in percentage of the starting bank.

Dan Harrington disagrees.

 

[MC_CPA]

Like usually im a bad player and making like 27% or 30% calls so to have 40% equity + fold equity seems to be worth it.

 

[Jers28]

This sounds like a good one and I hate to miss the conversation, but gotta run. Can’t wait to see how it played out. My only issue with betting is taking down a dry side pot does nothing for you. You want the all in bounced as much as anything else here. So, if the BB folds, you’ve just won what if you miss on the turn/river? There’s an argument to be made for betting, for sure. I’d just play the 2 v 1 angle, and if you hit, now you can worry about value from the BB. Especially if it’s the A, obviously.

 

[WedgeRock]

My only issue with betting is taking down a dry side pot does nothing for you.

SB called all in for 4BB, so there should be 7BBs in the side pot.

 

[Jers28]

SB called all of for 4BB, so there should be 7BBs in the side pot.

Good catch. My bad.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Day is busier so there will be some time after this update. I agree with some of the thoughts above, the flop looks great but all of us could have slammed this flop. Good clarification Wedge, but I think side pot was 3.5 from each, 10.5 BB in the side.

Ante is 0.1 BB from everyone.
SB posts 0.5
BB posts 1.0
Pot 2 BB
Hero has first to act.
Hero raises to 3 BB. I don't mind facing an all-in from the tiny stack SB.
CO raises to 7.5 BB. I've seen this before. I'll type what I think he's thinking but who knows if I was right: he believes I'm opening wider because of the short stacks, I had raised quite a few times and was chipping up a bit.
BU Folds
SB calls All-in for 4 BB. No bounty considered.
BB calls 7.5 BB. This is less scary than it should be, he has been known to call wide out of position and probably thinks I don't squeeze enough (I don't, duh!).
Back to Hero. Pot is now 22.5 BB with an all-in.

I won't stop us here, I called. Calling a 3 bet isn't fun but calling a 3 bet with another caller is much easier. If I am assuming their ranges are wider (5 hours in, tired, and relatively deep stacked for final table), I am comfortable playing KTdd in this position.

I call. Roast me please.
Pot 27 BB. So heading to the flop with an all-in and two mid stacks

FLOP:
SB ALLIN
BB (142 BB) - Checks. Most likely his whole range. I see him calling pretty wide with suited cards, possibly low suited connectors.
Hero UTG (75 BB) - Checks. I have lots of possible equity and the other 2 had checked it down before. We were still 75 BB effective, but a bet OOP puts me in a more uncomfortable spot.
CO (108 BB) - Checks. I see AA continuing to bet, QJ bets to deny diamonds and to isolate the all-in. Check may mean air, may mean Axdd, unsure.

Pot 27 BB, 16.5 in main 10.5 in side.
TURN:
SB ALLIN
BB (142 BB) - Checks. Doesn't tell me too much, he's not always trapping but could also be thinking that we're trying to knock out the short stack.
Hero UTG (75 BB) - Checks. I don't want to wait at this junction because the next is more interesting. I still had lots of equity and there's no pressure to end hand here. I've also had CO stab turn after flop gets checked through and wanted to see what he would do. He's played similarly with delayed c-bets but also with monsters. The joys of playing out of position!

CO (108 BB) - Bets 18.5 BB. This was semi-expected but didn't help me too much. He's a good player and would do this with air or in an attempt to build a pot. I wasn't worried about this but was considering raising to make sure I realize my equity and using the ICM pressure, but I didn't have much time to think before
BB (142 BB) - Calls 18.5 BB. This was surprising. Decent side pot, all-in, an unknown acting behind him to close action. I was wary. This was much scarier than the original bet, I thought I would be flipping or ahead of the CO but this was odd. Sure, he could be doing this with a J thinking the same way I did about the CO, or with Axdd, but I reduce the combos of those with the KT. May just be a misstep or may have me dominated, but this changed my thought process and gave me pause. Better price but two decent callers and one of my draws may be dead with murderous reverse implied odds.

Pot: 16.5 in main, side is now 47.5 BB
Hero (75 BB) - ACTION?

 

[WedgeRock]

I think side pot was 3.5 from each, 10.5 BB in the side.

Read too quick. Didn't realize it was still 3-way with one player all in.

With three players in the hand, I like checking the flop. There will be plenty of time for betting when you hit your hand.

 

[JMC9389]

Easy fold after the action on the turn

 

[SixSpeedFury]

Day is busier so there will be some time after this update. I agree with some of the thoughts above, the flop looks great but all of us could have slammed this flop. Good clarification Wedge, but I think side pot was 3.5 from each, 10.5 BB in the side.

Ante is 0.1 BB from everyone.
SB posts 0.5
BB posts 1.0
Pot 2 BB
Hero has first to act.
Hero raises to 3 BB. I don't mind facing an all-in from the tiny stack SB.
CO raises to 7.5 BB. I've seen this before. I'll type what I think he's thinking but who knows if I was right: he believes I'm opening wider because of the short stacks, I had raised quite a few times and was chipping up a bit.
BU Folds
SB calls All-in for 4 BB. No bounty considered.
BB calls 7.5 BB. This is less scary than it should be, he has been known to call wide out of position and probably thinks I don't squeeze enough (I don't, duh!).
Back to Hero. Pot is now 22.5 BB with an all-in.

I won't stop us here, I called. Calling a 3 bet isn't fun but calling a 3 bet with another caller is much easier. If I am assuming their ranges are wider (5 hours in, tired, and relatively deep stacked for final table), I am comfortable playing KTdd in this position.

I call. Roast me please.
Pot 27 BB. So heading to the flop with an all-in and two mid stacks

FLOP:
SB ALLIN
BB (142 BB) - Checks. Most likely his whole range. I see him calling pretty wide with suited cards, possibly low suited connectors.
Hero UTG (75 BB) - Checks. I have lots of possible equity and the other 2 had checked it down before. We were still 75 BB effective, but a bet OOP puts me in a more uncomfortable spot.
CO (108 BB) - Checks. I see AA continuing to bet, QJ bets to deny diamonds and to isolate the all-in. Check may mean air, may mean Axdd, unsure.

Pot 27 BB, 16.5 in main 10.5 in side.
TURN:
SB ALLIN
BB (142 BB) - Checks. Doesn't tell me too much, he's not always trapping but could also be thinking that we're trying to knock out the short stack.
Hero UTG (75 BB) - Checks. I don't want to wait at this junction because the next is more interesting. I still had lots of equity and there's no pressure to end hand here. I've also had CO stab turn after flop gets checked through and wanted to see what he would do. He's played similarly with delayed c-bets but also with monsters. The joys of playing out of position!

CO (108 BB) - Bets 18.5 BB. This was semi-expected but didn't help me too much. He's a good player and would do this with air or in an attempt to build a pot. I wasn't worried about this but was considering raising to make sure I realize my equity and using the ICM pressure, but I didn't have much time to think before
BB (142 BB) - Calls 18.5 BB. This was surprising. Decent side pot, all-in, an unknown acting behind him to close action. I was wary. This was much scarier than the original bet, I thought I would be flipping or ahead of the CO but this was odd. Sure, he could be doing this with a J thinking the same way I did about the CO, or with Axdd, but I reduce the combos of those with the KT. May just be a misstep or may have me dominated, but this changed my thought process and gave me pause. Better price but two decent callers and one of my draws may be dead with murderous reverse implied odds.

Pot: 16.5 in main, side is now 47.5 BB
Hero (75 BB) - ACTION?

As tempting as it is to chase your draws, the BB calling is clearly sending out strong red flags. Fold.

 

[mipevi]

Boo @ the nits LOL

I'd open for 2.5 so you don't risk reopening the betting if SB shoves, and you overall risk just a little less vs. opening for 3. As played you certainly call the 3bet, but need to proceed cautiously against the two players covering you. Flop is fine as played, as well as the turn check. Would CO really bet 18.5 into a 10.5 sidepot here with air, given to win the full pot he needs to win at least against SB in showdown? I'm calling and looking for a diamond that doesn't pair the board (going busto if someone gets the nut flush here) or the straight.

 

[Kain8]

Getting over 4:1 on a call with at least 7 clean straight outs, it's awfully tempting now. If you're not willing to stack off making a non-nut flush though, then backing out and letting the two big stacks fight is very reasonable.

It's a pretty big inflection point in the tournament no matter what decision Hero makes, so I'd rather be part of the action here. You still have over 50 bb if the river bricks which as mentioned before by Hero, is their comfort zone of opening wider currently.

 

[toothpic]

The action is confusing to figure out each hand.

On the flop, it doesn't feel like anyone has a strong hand if it checks through on such a wet board. Especially CO if they were last to act and checked as well. Maybe they are checking a top pair and are worried about a check raise?

On the turn it checks to CO who then puts a good sized bet in. Maybe CO is running Axdd, but agreed that BB calling makes it feel like they have the flush draw instead and maybe CO still has top pair. Doesn't feel like a set would play this way multiway.

I'm calling the 18.5bb turn bet and will assess on the river.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Ante is 0.1 BB from everyone.
SB posts 0.5
BB posts 1.0
Pot 2 BB
Hero has first to act.
Hero raises to 3 BB.
CO raises to 7.5 BB.
BU Folds
SB calls All-in for 4 BB. No bounty considered.
BB calls 7.5 BB.
Hero calls 7.5 BB
Pot 27 BB. So heading to the flop with an all-in and two mid stacks

FLOP:
SB ALLIN
BB (142 BB) - Checks.
Hero UTG (75 BB) - Checks.
CO (108 BB) - Checks.

Pot 27 BB, 16.5 in main 10.5 in side.
SB ALLIN
BB (142 BB) - Checks.
Hero UTG (75 BB) - Checks.

CO (108 BB) - Bets 18.5 BB.
BB (142 BB) - Calls 18.5 BB.
Pot: 16.5 in main, side is now 47.5 BB

Is there ANY thought of shoving here? Lot of money behind, and the board is still very dynamic. I don't see a monster calling instead of raising. Can you see QJ calling a shove? A5dd calling a shove? JT? I think a shove ends the hand a good amount of the time and picks up a great side pot. I'd be shoving 75 BB; they have room to call or room to fold. I am disappointed that I didn't shove here actually, this is the point that sticks in my brain.

Hero (75 BB) - Calls 18.5 BB. In the moment I thought the call helped me and I could come along to realize my equity. I have outs to the nuts and more to the 2nd nuts, with higher implied odds if an Ace hits and gives someone 2 pair. The call was less scary because of the player, I have seen this type of call before and he's probably adjusting to my lack of raising there.


POT - Main 10.5 Side 72 BB, total 82.5
RIVER:
Hero now has the nuts, and as played I doubt someone was coming along with KT without the accompanying flush draw. Some of you may have been expecting this since I decided to put the hand up, but I still want to figure out how to get the most value.

BB (123 BB) - Checks. My thoughts were Axdd bricks out. I could see Js, Qs, and maybe QJ checking here OOP in a bloated pot.
HERO (56 BB) - ACTION??

 

[JMC9389]

Bet a small blocker bet to represent a 9 and spring the trap. Drag the pot in like a lucky donkey once everyone folds.

 

[toothpic]

At this point is there a big difference between a 30bb bet vs a shove? 30bb bet seems more milky and if they are calling 30bb they are likely calling 56bb, but what do they have they could call that with? T8 makes no sense as we're blocking the only combo that should still be here (T8dd).

Going super tiny is possible, but is anyone willing to play back at you multiway?

 

[WedgeRock]

Can you see QJ calling a shove?

If you have QJ, are you calling a shove?

I like calling the turn, but only when I know the nuts is hitting the river. As played, I probably call 18.5BB. if I brick out, I have 57BB left, which is enough to work with.

Hero now has the nuts

If one of your opponents had AdXd, they are likely not calling unless it was something like AdQd. I'd bet half my stack and see if I could get two callers, but hope I get raised by a set of queens.

Bet 25BB.

 

[Kain8]

The river completes a lot of potential straight draws and probable two pair holdings. I'd be very hard pressed to value bet top pair here against two opponents if I was the cutoff.

With that in mind, any bet Hero does make looks pretty strong now. Anywhere from 20 - 30 bb should be bet.

 

[upNdown]

I think the right answer here is a snap-jam. But it’s too late for that because I already thought about it.
It exploits one of Bart’s best live tells (if a guy snaps on a nut-changing river card, he’s probably bluffing) and it seems like you’re trying to steal it, because who the hell would get here with K10?