Tourney Indivisible Bounty Payouts & preventing unsportsmanlike conduct (2 Viewers)

[MC_CPA]

At my free to play events, the top 2 of 60 get 'rebuys' to future events (before registration closes). These can also be used as 'add-ons' at any time for half the value of the starting stack. They are also 'bounty' chips in the sense they can be lost to other players who hold the chips.

They are 'bounties' in the sense that if you get knocked out by another person holding one of the rebuy chips, you must surrender one of your rebuy chips to them, instead of being able to use said rebuys or being able to carry it forward to another event.

Recently I had someone with a rebuy chip make a 'tactical surrender' in which he dropped out of the tournament when he had ~2bbs left to avoid losing his rebuy. I found this to be unsportsmanlike and against the spirit of the game. If they didn't wish to lose it to a specific player, they could've cashed it in for a buyin (maybe 1bb at that level), but he ended up just dropping and since no one knocked him out, we just split his remaining chips and took the rebuy out of play.

In the future, would it make sense to specify that if a player with one of these bounty rebuys wishes to drop, their stack will be blinded out (and their bounty chip remain in play)?

If someone's at risk of losing it, I want their options to be:

1) Trade it in as an add-on for half a starting stack (possibly as low as ~1bb depending on the level)
2) Keep the chip in play to add another layer to the game
3) Chip dump their lead to a player without a rebuy chip (undesirable but a better alternative IMO than surrendering it to avoid losing it)

 

[Tarsus4]

Can you clarify, when a player busts, they choose between rebuying or giving it to the winning player? So they either convert it into hardly any big-blinds or gift it to someone else? Or is it that if they have only one token (because they've won only once) they can't use it as a rebuy at all and it just circulates until someone has two of them? Penalizing a player for something that's supposed to be a reward doesn't seem like a good idea. I would get rid of the bounty aspect and make it a rebuy that automatically gets redeemed as an add-on when the rebuy period should close (20-25bb?).

Regardless of what you do, I would make it clear that once a player enters, the rebuy token is part of the tournament and not going back home with them (unless they win).

 

[MC_CPA]

Thanks for your thoughts - let me clarify.

If a player with one of the token knocks out another player with a token, the winner can take the token and the person knocked out loses the token.
If a player without one of the token knocks out another player with a token, the player with the token can use their token to receive one buy-ins worth of chips, or carry it to the next event and not use it in the current event.
At any time before a hand starts, the token can also be traded in for half a buyin, or a stack can be traded in alongside the token for a full buy-in.

You are right in that they either convert it to a handful or 'lose' it to someone else (that someone else has to also have a token to be able to 'earn' it, it's not a gift). At any given time there are a handful of players with these tokens.

If they get knocked out by a player without rebuys, then their token stays with them for the next event. What I want to avoid is players being able to 'dodge' losing the token, as it's the only element of risk at my events since we can't charge for events. The value of the token is being able to play poker longer.

 

[Tarsus4]

Thanks for your thoughts - let me clarify.

If a player with one of the token knocks out another player with a token, the winner can take the token and the person knocked out loses the token.
If a player without one of the token knocks out another player with a token, the player with the token can use their token to receive one buy-ins worth of chips, or carry it to the next event and not use it in the current event.
At any time before a hand starts, the token can also be traded in for half a buyin, or a stack can be traded in alongside the token for a full buy-in.

I can't say I love the value of the token to the bearer being dependent on who he's playing against. That seems likely to distort play. A short-stacked token bearer would have to avoid big pots against other token bearers. A deep-stacked token bearer could bully other token holders by constantly going all-in.

You are right in that they either convert it to a handful or 'lose' it to someone else (that someone else has to also have a token to be able to 'earn' it, it's not a gift). At any given time there are a handful of players with these tokens.

If they get knocked out by a player without rebuys, then their token stays with them for the next event. What I want to avoid is players being able to 'dodge' losing the token, as it's the only element of risk at my events since we can't charge for events. The value of the token is being able to play poker longer.

I think I like the spirit of a "take down the king" bonus, but if you want there to be a bounty why not have the house fund it instead of the player by just issuing a new token? As you say, these are entirely non-monetary, you're in charge.

 

[MC_CPA]

I think I like the spirit of a "take down the king" bonus, but if you want there to be a bounty why not have the house fund it instead of the player by just issuing a new token? As you say, these are entirely non-monetary, you're in charge.

The entire event is non monetary theres no cost to play. The reward is earning one of the tokens (top 2 of every event get a token and can participate in token hunting). To preserve their value, I'm unable to hand them out to everyone. This was the only way I could add stakes to a game without stakes.

I know I'm on the right track because players are afraid of losing them, but the issue is to ensure that players can't tactically preserve their tokens by just dropping out of the event. I like your comment about how the token will remain in play, I think I will do that and just blind down their stack rather than split their stack with the table in the event they have to leave for an emergency or something.

 

[Machine]

I love that he found a hole in your setup. Kudos. I also love that he gets to be the reason you make a special rule or edit / change your rules, he beat the TD at the meta level.

I think you should blind off the stack at the table, but he should get to keep the token.

I might create a rule that says anyone surrendering has a 2 round penalty the next game. That will mess with him. It doesn’t affect the token or the game and it’s a blanket rule so it doesn’t target him.

 

[OutOfTown]

I would play it as: A player cannot leave a tournament and take chips with them. They can only leave the table, and any chips they had, including the reward/bounty chip remain on the table. The stack will be blinded off, and the bounty chip is up for grabs, which might be difficult to manage if it can be taken only by player holding a bounty chip himself - so you'd need to return the chip to the player who left.

In general: This concept of a combined reward/bounty chip feels strange to me. On one hand it is supposed to be a reward for the winning player, on the other hand that reward can be taken away from him. If the tournament had cash prizes, would you take part of their winnings from them when they bust in the next tournament?

One thing I like about poker and poker tournaments is that it is a fair game: Everybody plays by the same rules at the same stakes and gets the same chances as any other player. This reward chip violates that rule by offering rebuys/add-ons only to players who had previously won a tournament (if I understood this correctly). I understand that this is meant as an actual reward or an incentive and add some fun to the free to play events.

If I wanted to implement a similar system, I'd probably use two different chips: The winner will receive a rebuy chip as before, and the winner of the previous tournament gets a bounty chip at the start. Whoever wins this bounty chip will receive the second rebuy chip. Once won, the bounty chip stays with that player - otherwise the tournament winner would always end up with both rebuy chips.

 

[BigGrizz]

This whole system seems set up for failure. Lock rebuys to the same tournament. Bounties pay a preset cash value for that tournament. Done.

I'm all for power-ups to make games fun though. Like give each player 3-5 pineapple or boost chips that leave when used, but gives the player a 3rd hole card for that hand.