Bank a little light at night's end... Etiquette? (1 Viewer)

[valleychips]

Hey folks,

For the first time, my home game bank was off in a way that actually mattered (more than a few bucks). My thought is that I must have screwed something up. I'm starting to allow folks to e-pay and I put in cash for them, because I think asking everyone to have enough cash is unrealistic in this day and age with millennials and younger. One day we may go entirely cashless... but not all our players are there yet.

I serve as banker, and any dedicated dealers serve as bankers too. Somewhere, I'm guessing I forgot to put in cash for someone who rebought, or we misidentified a bill (mistook a $20 for a $100 or something).

I asked my players in the group chat if I happened to overpay anyone during cash out, just to find my error, but I personally think it was with incoming cash.

Again, I'm eating the loss here. That's part of hosting. I'm not expecting anyone to fix it (though a couple folks generously offered to pitch in a little and one guy wouldn't take no for an answer -- he was with me when I found the error initially).

Has this happened to anyone else, and how do you handle it? Especially if it recurs? Do you mention it to your players (like I did)? Anything else you do?

One solution I have is that I will be the only banker for all buy ins, add ons, and rebuys. And e-payments will be verified in cash with me and the player (payee), confirming the correct amount before I dole out chips. I suppose I was overdue for some kind of error, but it's the kind of thing that really bugs me. Thanks team.

 

[toothpic]

This is a tough one. I do the bank for my games too and our games are full of rebuys and drinks. It gets hard to track sometimes when it's electronic payments but just like you, we have the person who is doing an electronic payment send it to someone who has the cash to cover.

At the end of the night, I pay out everyone first and myself last. Most of the time things are right but if it's off, it's on the banker. Take your time to count the buyin amount, double count the chips you hand out and double count stacks at the end when it's payout time. It sucks when the bank is short and you're the banker but it's unfortunately part of that role.

 

[bakjak]

Someone should take the role of recording the banking transactions of cash/electronic to chips. Most of the games I’ve been to, they’ve just written it all on a simple notepad. And we either cash out at the end with actual cash or Zelle/Venmo.

 

[BarrieJ3]

Has this happened to anyone else, and how do you handle it? Especially if it recurs? Do you mention it to your players (like I did)? Anything else you do?

Different answers for this as host, and as player.

As host, you eat the cost. Simple, bam. It should be a very rare occurrence, and easily considered part of the host cost. If there's repeated issues, that's a different story and at that point need to consider process improvements and changes. I don't think there's anything wrong with reaching out.

In your example, it sucks, because you mention that various dealers act as bank. So suddenly we have various hands in the cookie jar, yet only you being responsible.

As a player, you follow this man's lead:

one guy wouldn't take no for an answer

Everyone that is there at the end of the night splits the difference (including host).

This is also why as a player, when cashing out at end of night you wait until everyone gets cash and bank is settled.

I've been to several PCF home games and meetups (neither mine) where people have just run off when bank was off or head straight for the door as soon as cash is in hand. Jackwagons.

 

[BarrieJ3]

Also I might just be tired after working in the garage all night, but the right side of your V looks extremely phallic.

 

[valleychips]

I will neither confirm nor deny these allegations.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

One bank, one banker. I am the only person who exchanges chips for cash and vice versa in my game.

The bank itself is cash only, but I always have plenty of extra cash and allow players to exchange Zelle, Venmo, or CashApp for cash to rebuy.

If there's an error, it's on me. It's my responsibility as banker to stay sober enough to not screw up the bank.

One of my common mistakes is that when I add on or rebuy, I sometimes forget to move money from my cash (left pocket) to the bank (right pocket). My solution for this is that I always start the night with a known amount and record all rebuys in PBT. That way if I forget to move cash, I know at the end of the night.

 

[valleychips]

I'm creating a live updating spreadsheet in my phone to keep track of everything in and out now... so it should zero out at the end of every game.

Def gonna do one banker only from now on (me). Also I like the idea of starting with a known amount of cash. Good call. Thanks!

 

[Dann1215]

Weighing in here as both player and host - bank is on the host. If players leave when bank isn’t settled they risk not being invited back and if players are asked to pitch in, they might not return for a future game.

my 2c - eat the cost once and create a system where this never happens again.

-Dan

 

[Moxie Mike]

bank is on the host.

100%. It's part of hosting.

Has this happened to anyone else, and how do you handle it? Especially if it recurs? Do you mention it to your players (like I did)? Anything else you do?

I've had it happen both ways. One time not too long the the bank was $20 heavy. I couldn't account for the extra Jackson in the drawer. I texted the group to see if anyone was shorted when they cashed out... no one was. I imagine someone bought in at the beginning of the night and either didn't receive enough chips or accidentally gave me an extra bill.

The consensus was to just to use the extra cash to buy snacks for the next game or something. Wasn't a big deal.

Another time more recently after cashing everyone out, the drawer was light $100. Again - I texted the group and one guy after checking his wallet, confirmed that he was given an extra hundo since they were new bills and they stuck together. He gave it back to me the following week.

 

[valleychips]

If players leave when bank isn’t settled they risk not being invited back

I've tried this but some people inevitably have to leave early (kids, early starts the next morning). I cash them out and the rest of us keep playing. I've tried having people stay during cash outs. With two tables, I find it challenging to keep people there (one table is doable). My thought is to periodically check the bank (maybe when others are doing bomb pots) so that I know money is right... and then people can leave as they cash out. Ideally though yes everyone who has cash would stay to the end.

 

[twosevenbluff]

I keep a record and write down every buy-in and re-buy. In the invite I will always state that it's a cash buy in. As most have experienced, inevitably someone either forgets cash or runs out and resorts to a digital payment. I will have that player pay me, and i will add cash to the bank after it's received digitally. A quick way to periodically check is just have a tally or total of the buy ins in the corner of the ledger, and count up the money in the bank.

I've started to just keep this on an envelope and money goes in there, writing down the names and amounts on the envelope keeps it all in one place.

I've tried this but some people inevitably have to leave early (kids, early starts the next morning). I cash them out and the rest of us keep playing.

this is the same situation for me, rarely are all or even half of the players still around when we finish playing, so i just try to triple check the chips as they come off the table, and the money is paid out. I think it was the second game i hosted, when i was cashing out the final players i came up one buy in short to match my stack. a little tipsy and couldn't quite nail down when it could have happened, but my best guess (or maybe just to make myself feel better) was i didn't put cash in for one person's venmo rebuy. but in the end it's the host/banker's responsibility and liability to keep the bank right.

 

[woodsy]

Only 1 banker (you), and do all cash for chips transactions on the table in front of God and everyone. If the chips for cash transaction is off the table full of players will help nip it in the bud immediately.

 

[valleychips]

I'm very dorkily (is that a word?) excited to try the live updating cloud spreadsheet I made at our next game. Name of player, time of transaction, amount, medium (cash, Venmo, Zelle to cash, etc.), purpose (buy in, add on, rebuy). Most of these are drop down menu options. It auto adds up money so I always know the total. Then I have the cash outs listed in similar fashion and the sheet subtracts cash outs from the cash in total. I'll know exactly how much $ we have in the bank at any time. It'll all zero out if everything is successful.

The sheet, plus me being the only bank and source of chips, plus me occasionally checking what's in the bank to verify the total (when I take a few mins away from the game every hour), should fix any issues. And the idea of me having a set amount in my wallet (e.g. $500) at the start of every night also allows me to reconcile the ledger better with all the e-payments coming in.

Appreciate it everyone! You all helped me turn an error into a much better system.

 

[twosevenbluff]

I'm very dorkily (is that a word?) excited to try the live updating cloud spreadsheet I made at our next game. Name of player, time of transaction, amount, medium (cash, Venmo, Zelle to cash, etc.), purpose (buy in, add on, rebuy). Most of these are drop down menu options. It auto adds up money so I always know the total. Then I have the cash outs listed in similar fashion and the sheet subtracts cash outs from the cash in total. I'll know exactly how much $ we have in the bank at any time. It'll all zero out if everything is successful.

Best of luck and let us know how the sheet works out for you! me personally, i would be afraid that the spreadsheet could become a hassle depending on the complexity (time of transaction being one i feel would be cumbersome unless you set the sheet up to auto populate it.. i'm sure there is a way to do this in excel or google) but if you streamline it enough it sounds like it'll be EZ.

 

[Gunnar]

I track every payment In Google sheets. That is the standard around me in every game.

 

[Tarsus4]

I use Google Sheets on my phone to track all transactions, with the app already opened to the right place in the right sheet. Chips don't go out until the amount and source (Zelle, etc) are recorded. I've found that the most important thing to get 100% right is the cash coming in (and chips going out), since players are much more eager to "help" you get the cash-out transaction right.

 

[twosevenbluff]

Maybe I'll try setting up a sheet for my next game, auto tallying sounding nice. Pad and paper have always been quick and effective for me

 

[Machine]

excited to try the live updating cloud spreadsheet I made at our next game. Name of player, time of transaction, amount, medium (cash, Venmo, Zelle to cash, etc.), purpose (buy in, add on, rebuy).

enough to make a data guy proud. So many people don't track time, but with multiple apps, you really want it to coordinate which account is tied to the person.

It can be challenging keeping up with it, making sure it's all set up and ready to go on your phone.

I'm not the biggest fan of electronic payment from everyone all the time, they need to bring cash, but if you're going to do this, you should have cash to cover all electronic transaction so that you can pay out cash. Tracking everyone and paying out in electronic transactions is ridiculous imo. 1, I want cash 2, you really don't have time to log into the app they paided you on after looking it back up and then paying them out of that app.

 

[doublebooyah85]

Some ideas by no means the only way or best way…

1. When someone is going to pay via Venmo they go on the books as credit. I don’t want an unnecessary electronic payment transaction coming in if we don’t need to. If they win at the end of the night they are only getting cash back. No Venmo/zelle ever needed to be sent.

2. I don’t do this but played in a game with receipts. Write it down / record it, and every buy in is kept track w a recorded receipt both to the player and host. Square up at the end. Similar to a casino marker.

 

[CraigT78]

I hate the idea of tracking buy-in and rebuys. As a losing player who tells his wife he was "about even" on a regular basis, the thought of people having a ledger of my losses gives me goosebumps. Can anyone say blackmail??

 

[raynmanas]

I hate the idea of tracking buy-in and rebuys. As a losing player who tells his wife he was "about even" on a regular basis, the thought of people having a ledger of my losses gives me goosebumps. Can anyone say blackmail??

this is what aliases are for. i suggest "degenifer".

 

[BarrieJ3]

When first playing, the banks on the west coast always had written ledger.

I thought it was a great idea.

Since, every single game I’ve played, someone has always been not a fan and we nix it.

We are, in almost every single state, either breaking the law, skirting the law, or tiptoeing right up to it.

I’m not sure everyone wants their data, including date and time they were present and took part, notated. Mayyyyyyybe on paper and shredded/tossed.

 

[BarrieJ3]

Something we never ask: WHAT STAKES ARE YOU PLAYING!

If we’re talking about $400-$2k on the table by the end of the night, I think we can throw that out the window. Even me as someone who never has cash, can stop and grab $300 for the night.

The discussion and strategy about what to implement is much more difficult if we’re approaching $10k+ on the table.

Personally, I don’t necessarily feel comfortable being somewhere there’s $20,000 cash. That is life changing money for some people. Desperate times.

I’m also not having thousands upon thousands upon thousands in transactions in one night for app/epayments.

I think hyperspecifically that is the situation that needs solved, and from other threads/responses the only solution I’ve seen thus far is tracking, settling at end, destroy tracking.

 

[doublebooyah85]

I hate the idea of tracking buy-in and rebuys. As a losing player who tells his wife he was "about even" on a regular basis, the thought of people having a ledger of my losses gives me goosebumps. Can anyone say blackmail??

It’s fucking annoying hilariously funny at the end of the night when you have 7 “markers” in your damn pocket.

 

[MrCatPants]

One bank, one banker. I am the only person who exchanges chips for cash and vice versa in my game.

The bank itself is cash only, but I always have plenty of extra cash and allow players to exchange Zelle, Venmo, or CashApp for cash to rebuy.

If there's an error, it's on me. It's my responsibility as banker to stay sober enough to not screw up the bank.

One of my common mistakes is that when I add on or rebuy, I sometimes forget to move money from my cash (left pocket) to the bank (right pocket). My solution for this is that I always start the night with a known amount and record all rebuys in PBT. That way if I forget to move cash, I know at the end of the night.

Take PCF lanyard from a meetup. Combine with zippered bankers bag.

You are welcome.

 

[Machine]

To be clear you shouldn’t track people’s buy ins that are using cash, at least with personal info, only apps

 

[Tarsus4]

I hate the idea of tracking buy-in and rebuys. As a losing player who tells his wife he was "about even" on a regular basis, the thought of people having a ledger of my losses gives me goosebumps. Can anyone say blackmail??

I’m not sure everyone wants their data, including date and time they were present and took part, notated. Mayyyyyyybe on paper and shredded/tossed.

If these are reasonable concerns for your games, there are options short of hoovering every scrap of data possible. A ledger could be as simple as lines stating "$50 cash in", "$80 Zelle out", etc. You don't need to attribute transactions to people in order to have a double-check of what should be in the bank.

 

[CraigT78]

I've run into a few banking problems over the years, and usually because I was drinking and would just grab chips for rebuys trusting that Venmo was received etc etc etc.

Now I run a strict cash in, cash out game. Everyone is aware that I will not take electronic payments. If you run out of cash, venmo someone else at the table and have them give you cash. This way I can audit the bank at any time by counting my empty racks and checking the cash bag.

By not offering Venmo personally, I don't have to work about transferring the funds to my back and getting the cash back out to refill my poker roll. I've got a couple of players who show up with more than enough cash to offer Degen loans at the table and it's one less thing for me to worry about as the host.

 

[BarrieJ3]

If these are reasonable concerns for your games, there are options short of hoovering every scrap of data possible. A ledger could be as simple as lines stating "$50 cash in", "$80 Zelle out", etc. You don't need to attribute transactions to people in order to have a double-check of what should be in the bank.

Truth.

Guess it’s a value proposition for everyone individually. I don’t think the value of that is worth the trouble, but I could def see folks implement that.

Much easier is taking a glance at the racks in play. Oh 2 racks fracs 16 racks of $5s 2 racks of $25s? Yup matches the bank.

Same results, quicker, less effort and mediums.