Floor! (1 Viewer)

[WedgeRock]

MP raises, folds to LP who shoves. Folds back to MP who calls.

MP shows 88, LP shows AJ.

Everyone looks to the dealer for a flop. He swept the discards into the stub and is shuffling them.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

MP didn't call yet. Awkward on all counts. As dealer, I am flushing in the face and looking to MP for action. Then LP. Then shuffling full, cutting, and showing whatever the fuck the next card is.

 

[JMC9389]

Unsure of the Roberts rule here, but for me, hand would be dead.

 

[WedgeRock]

MP didn't call yet.

No, MP called. MP was all in, at risk and slightly ahead.

OP edited.

 

[Irish]

RROP:

IRREGULARITIES

17. If the deck stub gets fouled for some reason, such as the dealer believing the deal is over and dropping the deck, the deal must still be played out, and the deck reconstituted in as fair a way as possible.

 

[Josh Kifer]

 

[merkong]

Dealer change. Ha!

 

[Thomacetti]

MP raises, LP shoves. MP calls.

MP shows 88, LP shows AJ.

Everyone looks to the dealer for a flop. He swept the discards into the stub and is shuffling them.

Dealer has to proceed and deal the flop, turn & river with the deck as is.
Due to the reshuffle, dealer can not reconstitute the deck so he can not alter it any further.

Sick...but mistakes can happen.

 

[WedgeRock]

the deck reconstituted in as fair a way as possible.

How do you propose doing that?

Dealer has to proceed and deal the flop, turn & river with the deck as is.

What happens when folded players say, "I folded a Jack," or "I folded an 8."

I'm not saying you're wrong, but it would suck for a known folded card to make a loser into a winner.

 

[WedgeRock]

RROP:

IRREGULARITIES

17. If the deck stub gets fouled for some reason, such as the dealer believing the deal is over and dropping the deck, the deal must still be played out, and the deck reconstituted in as fair a way as possible.

Seems a similar result from TDA.

 

[DrStrange]

The house has written rules one would hope. Ideally, they would largely follow Roberts Rules of Poker or the TDA. The floor references the rule regarding this sort of irregularity, makes a ruling and moves along.

It is understandable that the loser is going to be unhappy. It is painful to lose any hand much less in the middle of an irregular event, yet somehow, we eventually get over it. It surely would be fair to let this event color dealer tipping decisions. The dealers are paid exceptionally well and should be expected to be very close to perfect. Even so, mistakes will happen. Hopefully, not very often.

If this is a self-dealt game, we also need to be extra wary of allowing a dealer error to cause a misdeal once significant action has happened or after the dealer has looked at their hand. I have seen some pretty stupid stunts pulled followed by a request for a misdeal.

 

[Thomacetti]

What happens when folded players say, "I folded a Jack," or "I folded an 8."

I'm not saying you're wrong, but it would suck for a known folded card to make a loser into a winner.

There is a real possibility that mucked cards will end up on the board....but it is impossible to take out those cards (based on words of players, unless there is tracking like live feed). Even than, the order of the cards will be not the same after shuffle so the deck will stay as is.

This is a matter of sucking it up like @DrStrange mentioned... poker etiquette says that the players not in the hand don't reveal their folded cards.

 

[WedgeRock]

This was a home game tournament, so no live tracking of cards (I also don't believe any players that had folded revealed their cards).

It was also player dealt. Did I mention that including pregame and the breaks, the player who was dealing the hand (who was not MP or LP) had smoked five prerolls up to that point? To be fair, he felt really bad about what he had done.

At one time, the league used a lightly modified RROP, but that was awhile ago and it has not been updated (or even referenced) in a decade or more.

It looks like the right action would have been to play the hand out with the stub and discards in their current condition, per TDA or RROP.

The house (with significant input from the rest of the players NOT in the hand) ruled that there was no way to fairly play the hand and it was dead. I know both players' all in bets were returned. I think they also chopped the small amount in the middle, if there was anything. I don't believe anyone else got any bets back.

 

[Thomacetti]

The house (with significant input from the rest of the players NOT in the hand) ruled that there was no way to fairly play the hand and it was dead. I know both players' all in bets were returned. I think they also chopped the small amount in the middle, if there was anything. I don't believe anyone else got any bets back.

For home games, everything reasonable goes...I could live with a chop here if the other player prefered that.

In casino setting, previous action (AI & call) could NEVER declare this dead and they would proceed to deal the board.
After some horrendous rulings in low stake live tournies by dealers (also in Vegas), part of study was to dive in the basic rules.
In all of those cases the floor corrected the dealer but never hurts to know the rules.

 

[Boother36]

......the player who was dealing the hand (who was not MP or LP) had smoked five prerolls up to that point? To be fair, he felt really bad about what he had done.

John??

 

[Rieguy]

The house has written rules one would hope. Ideally, they would largely follow Roberts Rules of Poker or the TDA. The floor references the rule regarding this sort of irregularity, makes a ruling and moves along.

It is understandable that the loser is going to be unhappy. It is painful to lose any hand much less in the middle of an irregular event, yet somehow, we eventually get over it. It surely would be fair to let this event color dealer tipping decisions. The dealers are paid exceptionally well and should be expected to be very close to perfect. Even so, mistakes will happen. Hopefully, not very often.

If this is a self-dealt game, we also need to be extra wary of allowing a dealer error to cause a misdeal once significant action has happened or after the dealer has looked at their hand. I have seen some pretty stupid stunts pulled followed by a request for a misdeal.

Sorry to hijack your thread, but I need a different ruling @WedgeRock.

Is a @DrStrange post even valid and/or official if he doesn't sign his name at the end?

 

[WedgeRock]

Is a @DrStrange post even valid and/or official if he doesn't sign his name at the end?

Legitimate discussion point.

 

[ChaosRock]

I personally don't like that ruling.

My ruling would have been to finish shuffling the deck and deal the board as if the deck was still intact.

In this particular case it's not a huge deal since equities were close, but what if it was AA vs AK?

 

[Irish]

How do you propose doing that?


What happens when folded players say, "I folded a Jack," or "I folded an 8."

I'm not saying you're wrong, but it would suck for a known folded card to make a loser into a winner.

Given the specific situation, with the stub and discards already mixed, I'd have the dealer complete the "shuffle" and deal out the board like normal. In other cases where discards are potentially discernable, I'd make more of an attempt to rebuild the proper stub, but here it's already f'd.

In this situation (AIPF with just the 2 players), random is random. Yeah maybe the all-in had someone fold ace-rag, but maybe they just folded their garbage too, you just dont know and cant rely on players saying what they had (especially in a tourney where they may have an interest in seeing a stack/player eliminated). It would have sucked much worse if this had happened after subsequent streets with others in the hand, whereas the folds may have mattered a lot more.

I personally don't like that ruling.

My ruling would have been to finish shuffling the deck and deal the board as if the deck was still intact.

In this particular case it's not a huge deal since equities were close, but what if it was AA vs AK?

Agreed, especially with substantial action, the deal has to proceed. IIRC the only instance where you would declare the hand dead is if a card from the other deck appears in the stub.

 

[krafticus]

Damn, were you at my game last night @WedgeRock same thing happened in my tournament.

 

[gopherblue]

Neither player had any information about the folded hands when they acted, so there is no knowledge of any A, J, or 8 being added back in to the stub. I agree with Paulo and the others that you finish the shuffle in progress and deal as normal.

 

[RocAFella1]

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/ruling-needed-after-dealer-error.133593/